The response to my earlier post on what women want from men was so positive that I put together this post to explore the issue from a different angle. But first, a few ground rules:
• This entire post is based on generalizations; obviously, there are exceptions to every rule of thumb. Some may protest the use of stereotypes, but there is often enough truth in them to lightheartedly convey valuable insights.
• The terms “attractive” and “beautiful” refer to cultural and media standards, not to a woman’s inner beauty.
• The term “good in relationships” refers to men who are emotionally available, good communicators, hunger for emotional intimacy with their partner and know how to make a woman feel cherished.
• Certainly, many beautiful women have found their soulmates. I am simply contending that it’s a mistake to assume that an attractive woman can find Mr. Right as easily as she can find Mr. Right Now.
FIFTEEN REASONS WHY BEAUTIFUL WOMEN HAVE TROUBLE FINDING MR. RIGHT
1) The more attractive the woman, the more likely she will be approached by the kind of man who approaches attractive women. This kind of man views hunting, seducing and conquering women as sport.
The desire of a man for a woman is not directed at her because she is a human being, but because she is a woman. That she is a human being is of no concern to him.
Immanuel Kant
2) To a hunter, a woman’s body is a commodity; he wins the game by getting her into bed. To a nice guy, a woman’s body is a sacred treasure; he wins her heart by honoring who she is as a person.
If I became a philosopher, if I have so keenly sought this fame for which I’m still waiting, it’s all been to seduce women basically.
Jean-Paul Sartre
3) Hunters view women as nothing more than prey. By definition, nice guys are missing the “seducer” gene; even if they knew how to “play the game,” their conscience would never allow them to sweet-talk and manipulate a woman for their own selfish interests.
I think men talk to women so they can sleep with them and women sleep with men so they can talk to them.
Jay McInerney
4) Seducers are more likely to suffer from the disorder known as IAAMATT (It’s All About Me All The Time). Nice guys are more likely to be empathetic, nurturing and other-centered.
When I eventually met Mr. Right I had no idea that his first name was Always.
Rita Rudner
5) A woman turns to makeup and fashion to boost her self-esteem and make herself more desirable to men. Yet ironically, the more beautiful she makes herself, the better her chances of attracting the wrong type of guy.
It is better to be looked over than to be overlooked.
Mae West
6) The more attractive the woman, the less likely she will be approached by the kind of man who is good in relationships. Conversely, the less attractive the man, the less likely he will approach a woman who is far more attractive than he is. That said, are there nice guys who are attractive enough and/or courageous enough to ask out a beautiful woman? Certainly. But they are a rare breed.
It is not sex that gives the pleasure, but the lover.
Marge Piercy
7) The kind of man who values emotional intimacy often looks at a beautiful woman and thinks, “She’s out of my league.” That is the overwhelming reason why so many women are wondering why nobody (or at least nobody worth going out with) ever asks them out. Essentially, seducers view a woman’s beauty as an invitation; nice guys view it as a deterrent.
If it weren’t for pickpockets I’d have no sex life at all.
Rodney Dangerfield
8) When a beautiful woman gets fed up that only hunters are approaching her and decides to turn the tables by approaching a nice guy, she may be turned off by the reception she gets. In her mind, she’s just striking up a normal conversation. It doesn’t occur to her that she’s catching him off guard, and that even though he’s trying to listen to her, her words aren’t registering because his head is spinning from the fact that a beautiful woman is unexpectedly talking to him. The experience can be so foreign and disorienting that he comes across as a stammering fool. Patience here can pay off, for nice guys often have good relationship potential once their initial shock and “look, but don’t touch” mentality dissipates.
Can you imagine a world without men? No crime and lots of happy fat women.
Nicole Hollander
9) Since beautiful women are only approached by hunters, they understandably think that most, if not all, men treat women the way that hunters do. Meanwhile, the nice guys sit in the back of the room and admire her from afar. Of course, identifying the nice guys isn’t that simple; a man may be quiet and reserved, but just because he doesn’t act like a seducer doesn’t mean he doesn’t aspire to be one. The wolf in sheep’s clothing is just one more obstacle on the path to finding Mr. Right.
O Woman, you are not merely the handiwork of God, but also of men; these are ever endowing you with beauty from their own hearts . . . You are one-half woman and one-half dream.
Rabindranath Tagore
10) When a beautiful woman repeatedly experiences the same pattern with one hunter after another, she understandably expects that pattern to continue. Frustrated, she may close herself off emotionally to all men, eliminating any chance a nice guy may have of connecting with her in a meaningful way. In this way, her fear of never finding the right guy can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
We act in such a way that people finally comply and act in the way we feared they would act. You fear a person will leave you, and because of that fear, you act in such a way that finally causes the person to actually leave.
Bill Harris
11) If a woman wants to be swept off her feet by a man who would also make a good lifetime partner, she is apt to be disappointed. The kind of charmers who are sweep-her-off-her-feeters are often the polar opposite of the kind of men who are good in relationships.
When I meet a guy, the first question I ask myself is: Is this the man I want my children to spend their weekends with?
Rita Rudner
12) A nice guy is primarily relationship-oriented; he may first be attracted to a woman’s external beauty, but it is her internal beauty he values most highly. A hunter is exclusively achievement-oriented; he does not value what a woman thinks, says or feels; all that matters is that she has a woman’s body and he wants to get his hands on it. A hunter views a woman’s body the way a woman views a hot fudge sundae — as something to be hungrily consumed with total self-absoprtion.
Pamela Anderson Lee released a statement confirming that she has had her breast implants removed. Doctors say that Pamela is doing fine and that her old implants are now dating Charlie Sheen.
Conan O’Brien
13) Beautiful women often confine nice guys to the Friend Zone. A nice guy’s worst nightmare is hearing those nine soul-crushing words, “But I think of you as just a friend.” Many happy couples have built relationships on the bedrock of solid friendship, so perhaps it may be wise to rethink what makes good partner material and be open to finding it from unexpected sources. Which brings up the question: Can men and women truly be friends? Yes, but only if neither of them has any romantic interest in the other. If even one of them is harboring hopes of romance, the friendship will reach critical mass sooner rather than later, at which point the friendship must either dissolve or transition into a relationship.
The difference between men and women is that, if given the choice between saving the life of an infant or catching a fly ball, a woman will automatically choose to save the infant, without even considering if there’s a man on base.
Dave Barry
14) If and when a hunter decides to “retire” from hunting and get married, he chooses a woman he can possess for her beauty, not one he can build an emotionally intimate partnership with. What so many admiring men and envious women fail to see is that, throughout a woman’s entire life, her beauty can be as much a curse as it is a blessing.
Taught from infancy that beauty is woman’s sceptre, the mind shapes itself to the body, and roaming round its gilt cage, only seeks to adorn its prison.
Mary Wollstonecraft
15) Women who are less attractive to the type of men who only pursue attractive women are more likely to have higher-quality interactions with men. Why? Nice guys are often more comfortable asking out and authentically communicating with women who they feel are more likely to agree to go out with them.
Plain women know more about men than beautiful ones do.
Katherine Hepburn
The fifteen reasons above are daunting enough but they’re based on beauty alone. What if the beautiful woman in question is also brilliant and a successful high achiever? Yep, timid nice guys would view her as even more intimidating and unapproachable. Ah, but in Mr. Right’s eyes, those qualities would make her even more perfectly beautiful. Paging Mr. Right . . . Paging Mr. Right . . .
THE FOUR-WORD SOLUTION?
What’s the solution to this dating dilemma? One female reader succinctly commented: “Man up, nice guys!” What she’s insinuating is that if a guy isn’t man enough to take the lead and ask a woman out, he probably isn’t quality relationship material anyway. The flaw in that theory is that it just may not be in a guy’s nature to be a pursuer, aggressor and seducer; yet he could still be a caring, empathetic, nurturing, emotionally available partner. And if you think those qualities make a man less masculine, well, then that’s part of the problem.
Then again, a guy who’s intimidated by a woman’s beauty is likely to put her on a pedestal if by some chance they did start dating. Excessive doting might sound like a problem many women would be willing to endure but life on a pedestal can get old very quickly. A mature woman wants a partner who treats her as an equal; she will settle for nothing less than being authentically loved, not mindlessly worshipped. In short, a woman cures a man’s addiction to doting by acting as the anti-dote.
Demanding that nice guys man up is obvious, yes, but a tall order. In order to approach a beautiful woman, a man needs to have healthy self-esteem. The greater his autonomy, self-knowledge, and self-confidence, the greater the likelihood he will feel worthy of being with an attractive woman. In short, a nice guy has to stop dreaming and start doing the inner work that so many guys are reluctant to do.
Ultimately, of course, to make a relationship work, both the man and the woman have to see and appreciate the inner beauty of each other’s souls as well as their own. When that day comes, external beauty will be little more than an afterthought.
Finally, the question that so many women have asked is, “How do I find a nice guy?” A good place to start is to look for a guy who is good friends with a number of other women. By definition, a guy who has sincere, caring, mutually respectful relationships with women cannot and would not be a hunter. Good luck!
ONE WOMAN’S WISDOM
For all the women out there who are frustrated about not being able to find a good guy, here is some sage advice from a woman named Suzy. I thought the comment she left was important enough to feature more prominently. I hope her advice brings you some measure of comfort and inspiration.
Thank you, this is very true. 100% agree with what you say. I have experienced this and seen this with others too so many times. This is one main reason why many beautiful but valuable woman are still alone, generally over thirty. As a woman, I just think that time is wise and eventually the right person will come. Meanwhile, for beautiful women who are still alone, I just think:
1. Take advantage of being single. Focus on yourself and your goals. Successful and happy people are far more interesting.
2. Please don’t sit around feeling miserable because you are alone. Do what makes you happy and do it the best you can. When if not now?
3. Take the opportunity to meet more people, make friends and do more activities. Real friends are the people who will be around you when you get older.
4. Aim for success and fulfillment with your own self.
5. If you want a baby, remember we women don’t need a man for that, we can have a baby by ourselves. Artificial insemination, a crazy night on the beach? Whatever you choose, remember a woman can have a baby by herself. Aim to have a stable career that helps you raise your child. Forget about being with a man only for financial help.
6. Life is much more than marrying and having kids. Of course, if you have the luck to find the man of your life, there is nothing more beautiful than sharing your life and making a family with him; but if this is not the case, please don’t settle for someone who doesn’t make you feel valued or respected just based on the fact that you’re alone.
7. Forget about judgements from society. It’s your life and you decide who to be with and who to share it with. You only have one life so don’t let others decide what makes you happy. If you decide to be single for now or not to have kids, it’s your decision, not anyone else’s. What people say or think is just that, their little thoughts in their small limited world of judgements.
8. Travel, invest in yourself, do everything you can do that you wouldn’t be able to do if you were with the wrong person.
9. Time is limited. Please don’t waste it living the life of others or with the wrong people.
10. Develop your inner self and your mind, more than the outside features. This way, the right people may start coming around. Beauty doesn’t last, and it’s so stressful to only be admired for your beauty.
11. The last and most important one: Please see yourself as more than just beautiful. How you see yourself is what you project. Attitude is the key. If you put yourself only in the “beautiful” category, you’ll be limiting yourself a lot, and exposing yourself to keep meeting the wrong guys. Time passes and beauty doesn’t last. If you write down everything about yourself that you feel proud of, other than beauty, you’ll start placing yourself on a different level. Don’t waste your limited time seeing yourself as valuable based only on the external side of things. Remember, how you see yourself is what you project to others.
Click here to read my post on what women want from men. If you’re one of the three billion men on this planet who claim to have no clue, the answer is very simple.
Click here to view all my posts about romantic relationships.
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Tags: men, relatinoships, romance, women
Triumph of the Spirit 
September 14, 2010 at 2:22 AM
I feel a bit conceited lumping myself into the category of beautiful women, but I have definitely experienced most of what you wrote about. If I sit back, the type of men who approach me are generally not the type of men I am looking for, for all of the reasons you detailed above. The problem is that when I take matters into my own hands I find most nice, more reserved guys don’t appreciate me coming up to them. It’s as if we have switched roles and I am the conceited hunter.
The conclusion I came to is that the best way to meet people is to treat everyone like a good friend, with the same amount of love and respect. If something is going to develop beyond that, let it happen organically instead of having expectations when meeting someone.
The only rub is that because I don’t want to spend time involving myself with hunters, I have to be more patient (more often single). That said, I believe I have more meaningful romantic relationships overall.
September 14, 2010 at 7:56 AM
I appreciate the feedback, Jackie Rose. Your comments bring up a couple of good points. First, yes, you are attractive! Second, will nice guys welcome attractive women approaching them? Your experience says probably not. This is a bit of a head scratcher to me. I suspect that the element of surprise is at fault here. Since this rarely happens, guys aren’t expecting it and may stumble all over themselves not knowing how to respond. Third, while a woman doesn’t want to deal with wolves, she also probably wants a guy to be man enough to at least do the asking out. So ultimately, I think it comes down to the guy finding the courage to overcome the intimidation factor and just go for it. Developing that self-confidence bodes well not only for the initial contact but also for the relationship to follow.
September 15, 2010 at 8:10 PM
I can also relate, unfortunately, to some of these experiences. While I’ve never considered myself outrageously beautiful, I have sensed that I’m intimidating to some men. I want to attract the nice ones, but they’re too shy, and I’m often too shy to approach them.
I think I have also developed a general mis-trust of men, assuming even the nice ones are a “wolf in sheep’s clothing.” I refuse to allow myself to be fooled, so I end up missing out on a lot of good men because I err too far on the side of caution.
September 15, 2010 at 9:59 PM
Totally understandable, Hannah. I imagine most of us have romantic regrets to some degree. Sometimes it’s good to be cautious, but sometimes it’s good to throw caution to the wind. May you make the right choices going forward.
September 25, 2010 at 3:14 AM
so true
good post
September 25, 2010 at 8:18 AM
Thank you, Farouk.
January 30, 2011 at 6:10 PM
Very good job, Phil. I wonder if you have answer for my question. I am attractive, get a lot of attention (looks), and zero actions. I think the problem is my age. I look 15 ears younger. At 45, I am mistaken for 30-32. Was married 3 times- first at 16,lasted 15 years, other 2 marriages-met them both on-line, married shortly thereafter. The second guy was a jerk, Still friends with the last one. It has been a VERY long time since a guy approached me. Is it because they are unsure about my age?
January 30, 2011 at 6:13 PM
I highly doubt that, Sam. Guys usually like younger women. Do you want to get approached and asked out? If that’s the vibe you’re projecting, I’d think you would get lots of attention. WIthout knowing more, it’s hard to say.
March 13, 2011 at 11:36 PM
I’m adding this article to my favorites. It truly hits home!! I either meet the hunter or the nice guy who leaves me because he doesn’t feel he’s “good enough.” Although I’m a model, I wouldn’t consider myself drop dead gorgeous or someone who isn’t approachable; I think I’m cute. I have two bachelor degrees, I’m pursuing a master’s degree, and my next step is medical school and I’m still in my 20’s. I haven’t had a man approach me since in over 7 months until about two weeks ago. I told him that men don’t approach me and that it’s extremely difficult for me to meet men, and he scoffed like I was exaggerating or lying. I don’t know why men think it’s a foreign concept to be pretty and dateless. Men look at me, but it’s very rare that I get approached as anything other than a pretty face and it’s frustrating!! Since I haven’t met a man who I felt was interested in meeting me and not using me as arm candy, I’ve stopped going out to avoid the disappointment. I’ve given up on finding a nice guy because it just doesn’t seem possible. The men I’ve dated tell me that I’m sweet, so one would think that if you’re pretty & kind you wouldn’t be single, but that theory is far from true. I’m seeing now that beauty can be more of a setback because you’re seen as a “beautiful thing” not a potentially interesting person. Thank you once again for the article. It’s shed light on my bleak dating situation.
March 14, 2011 at 6:55 AM
Jovannie, you are the walking, talking embodiment of everything I wrote about here. For your sake, I wish that wasn’t the case, but I’m glad you found validation and value in this post. If I may make a suggestion, I would advise you to turn the tables and ask a guy out if you meet someone who interests you. I can assure you that there are many guys who would love to go out with you but who won’t take the initiative for the reasons stated here. Once you break the ice, you have a much better chance of finding what you’re looking for. Good luck to you!
March 20, 2011 at 7:40 AM
Phil – I will most definitely look to buy your book on this topic. I have, my entire life, had difficulties with relationships. I have been married three times – two short ones – one for ten years with children. My husband, when divorcing me, said “Why couldn’t you just be the beautiful wife, on my arm. Why did you have to screw it up?” My mom was a model in NY, I was a model, and danced for eight years. I am a professional woman now n my 50’s – single for 20 years now. I date, and the last time I put my profile on a dating site, I got 1283 responses in two months – some of them really crazy men, saying crazy things to me. This is the first time I am finding this information. I actually did a search on why we physically favored women have such a terrible time. I found you and your book. I am sad that maybe I will never find a man who loves me for the intelligent, sensitive, kind woman I am. Just men who are attracted to me, all the time for the wrong reasons. I am followed in stores, I have to always watch out. I don’t dress any different from anyone else – sometimes jeans, shirt, etc.
I have never asked any man out. I have never in my life in any dating site, winked, or talked to a man first. Afraid I would be taken as a pushy dominant woman.
Gee – I will have to read your book – and see what I can do to finally be happy.
March 20, 2011 at 8:14 AM
Claudia, I am sorry to hear of your experiences with men. Sorry, but not surprised. I remember feeling sad when a beautiful friend of mine told me that she was frustrated because she felt like she always had to wait until a guy asked her out, which meant she pretty much never went out with guys she wanted to go out with. Most guys don’t have a clue about such things.
Unfortunately, my book has nothing to do with this topic. I wish I could be of more help to you. All I can offer is another post I wrote on what women want from men:
As far as finding a man who understands all this? I’d recommend looking for someone who’s into spirituality, yoga, healthy living, etc. No guarantees, of course, but at least there’s a glimmer of hope.
May you find what you’re looking for, Claudia.
March 20, 2011 at 9:14 PM
I have to agree with the majority by saying this article is the answer to a lot of concerns we as women have about where in the world Mr. Right is hiding. I am attractive, there’s nothing wrong with admitting that, but I’m not conceited at all. I’m actually very friendly, very approachable, and one of those people that give you my undivided attention when in a conversation. With that being said I find more times than not guys who I am not attracted to at all (all the wrong guys) get the confidence from somewhere to ask me out, or ask for my phone number, and become very bold. My roommate from college said she could see how guys might think I’m giving them special attention/treatment by engaging in a conversation with them and them not knowing that my personality is just very warm and welcoming.
I can also agree with Hannah with certain type of guys being intimidated by me. I’m an executive in corporate America, the youngest person in my whole business college training program for my current position, so guys my age (20s) who aren’t as successful as I am tend to shy away. I am attracted to the nice guys, but they’re oftentimes too shy to approach me or sometimes try a little too hard to impress me, and that just makes it worse. Hannah made a great point about even the nice ones could fool you (haha).. I have never really let myself collapse completely in any relationship, I’ve always been myself which I think is important for a woman. So many times it’s the women in the relationship changing, and are left heartbroken.
March 20, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Thank you for your comment, LRenee. Yes, I imagine that the intimidation factor is doubled or tripled when a beautiful woman is also a capable, confident executive. It sounds like you have a very healthy approach and I wish you luck in finding what you’re looking for!
March 21, 2011 at 8:48 PM
I very much appreciate your article on Beautiful Women and finding mr. right. I found my mr. right, but he has ever failed to pursue me and now we are divorcing. it’s interesting the idea of equality…seeing and treating someone as an equal. This has been a desire of mine, but the way it played out was that i put my spouse on a pedestal (appreciated who he was, talked him up, served him to my utmost, etc) — bc he deserves it. But I believe I deserve it, too! I just never *received* this kind of equality. I knew my value; I just never experienced it through his eyes — or through his expressions. He was rather lacking in expression. It’s a wonder he “caught” me at all. He is easy to talk to. I used to be able to tell him everything, until we became romantically involved. Then it all stopped.
Frankly, I do find myself attracted to the pursuer — as a pursuer myself. I like to pursue and like to keep the pursuit going. When should we ever stop learning who our beloved is? When should we ever stop being grateful for them out loud, in public? When should we ever stop being tender and affectionate with them? When should we ever stop serving them? I say NEVER.
The marriage lasted almost 2 decades…of me waiting to be pursued. He was SO good at talking and listening, until we got romantic. But no, hubby was not a pursuer, which is why I might be attracted to pursuers. Dangerous business. I’m stepping away from the testosterone. and brandishing a fork, bc I do see predators out there.
So my downfall is that I am attracted to brilliant overachievers, who capture what they pursue and then stop, focus on their own selfish interests and leave me behind or I leave them behind. I want a pursuer who is committed to ME: both as a woman and as a human being.
Anyway, I saw A LOT of truth in the blog entry you posted, and I thank you. It was timely.
March 21, 2011 at 9:30 PM
I’m sorry to hear that your relationship didn’t work out, Marie. Yes, pursuit should be a lifelong ambition, in terms of pursuing knowledge about your partner. Couldn’t agree more.
April 30, 2011 at 7:49 PM
Hey Phil !
This was fabulous reading—good job :)
I think the solution is a spiritual one:
Firstly, there is NO ” Mr. Right” !
( Hollywood lied ! )
There is only Ms. Right within us and once we learn to truly love and honor ourselves as women — beautiful or not — we will hopefully draw into our lives, the mirror and reflection of who we truly are internally—not externally.
We are all being asked ( by spirit) to drop the externals and find within, what we are searching for, outside of ourselves.
Since we rarely had parental role models for this paradigm shift, we are struggling with this “homework assignment’.
So, ladies, look in the mirror and Love Thyself and then your true reflection will manifest —– IF we ALLOW it !!
I am preaching to the choir, but, irregardless, it’s the Highest Truth I know of in the growth we are struggling to BECOME.
Thanx for this opportunity to preach to myself :)
Blessings Phil !
April 30, 2011 at 7:53 PM
Couldn’t agree more, Carol. That’s why I ended the post with this paragraph:
Ultimately, of course, to make a relationship work, both the man and the woman have to see and appreciate the inner beauty of each other’s souls as well as their own. When that day comes, external beauty will be little more than an afterthought.
May 29, 2011 at 12:44 PM
This explains a lot. Boy, do I relate. I think all ten of the Davids I dated have predator dispositions.
“The voices in my head sing to me a cappella. I wear the traveling shoes of a weathered Cinderella.”
Holly Schroeder, Feminist
May 29, 2011 at 1:22 PM
May you find the anti-David sooner rather than later, Holly. Thanks for stopping by!
August 1, 2011 at 5:52 PM
So nice and refreshing to run into your blog Phil. I resorted to reading your blog because I need a positive note to hang on to after this past year or two of getting back in the dating game. I’m a 52 year old recently divorced, passionate, good-looking, young-hearted, extremely independent woman. Sorry, not conceited – just confident. Irregardless, I resorted to joining twitter because of my horrific experience in the awful world of “online dating” which left me nothing less of baffled and totally confused. The men I date range from 42-49 (younger, but which I consider in my age range — please correct me if there’s a misconception here, I’ve never dated men my age actually fyi). Surprisingly, it never seizes to amaze me how non-commital, game-playing, and emotionally unavailable these guys truly are; however, they say they want to be in a relationship. Hello, no you don’t! Or is it me? I value myself, maintain certain standards, have class, am a good communicator/conversationalist, and possess emotional and social intelligence — am I asking too much from a man to value all this and is it too high of an expectation for men to handle the honesty I express in what I seek and want? Like honesty and monogomy for starters would be good. Thank you for your blog, I’ll be an avid reader. And people, if you think you’ll have it all figured out when you’re 52, surprise! Life throws lots of curve balls so either run really fast or get out of the way because they will still be coming at ya!! And if you catch one, well good for you, but there’s still another one coming, I promise. Thanks for hearing me out Phil, God Speed.
August 1, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Thanks so much for responding, Sylvie. I’m glad you found the post meaningful. First of all, it’s great that you’re 52 because that means you’re finally playing with a full deck! As for finding men who are mature, honest, good-hearted and emotionally available, the first thing that comes to mind is meeting them at places where people on a spiritual path congregate. But, of course, there are no guarantees there either. Lots of women are looking for a good man, and lots of men are looking for a good woman. Why it’s so difficult to find someone who is honest and monogamous is beyond me. There are a lot of men out there who give men a bad name. I wish I could be of more help to you and all the other single people looking for a good match.
August 10, 2011 at 7:44 AM
Every women I know regardless of their size, age or beauty will tell you they’ve all met and perhaps even dated Mr. Right-now a few times over. I’ve also know many nice, intelligent and good looking guys who were just clueless or too shy to approach a women they found interesting and attractive. Please write a longer article about nice guys “manning up.”
August 10, 2011 at 7:50 AM
“Clueless” is a good word to describe it, Dona. To some extent, I have written a post about guys manning up as far as treating women the way they want and need to be treated. Here it is: https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/cherish/
October 12, 2011 at 7:24 AM
Very interesting…but there is no solution from what i read except if I start going out in sweats, no makeup and a ponytail. I guess too it could be our faults as women. Because the “few nice” guys who had the galls to approach me or went on a date, they weren’t into really taking care of themselves. I’m firm believer you work with whatcha got. Meaning, doesn’t matter if you are attractive but doesn’t mean you should take care of yourself…Perplexing but it does answer my question when I look at married couples walking in the streets, sometimes you’ll see one very good looking partner with one that is average by society standards. Maybe they were the exception to the rule.
October 12, 2011 at 7:48 AM
No, there is not a one-size-fits-all solution, Jenni. But a good place to start would be raising your awareness of the dynamics at play, which you’ve already done simply by reading this post. It’s also a good idea to more consciously develop your ability to discern others’ character and intentions, which, of course, would be beneficial in all areas of life. The more attuned you are to your own intuition, the better your chances of success in any kind of relationship. Yes, there are good guys out there who “get it” and who are confident and bold in a good way; there probably just aren’t as many of them as women would like there to be.
October 20, 2011 at 3:26 AM
I am SO glad that I found this site. I am sick and tired of having men and my women friends tell me that I’m beautiful. I’m going to puke if I see one more guy staring at me at a singles dance or at a dinner party or some other event and not coming over to introduce himself and talk with me. I am sick and tired of being viewed as a “thing” and not as a person. I don’t want to hear that I look like Rita Hayworth. I don’t want to hear that I look like Natalie Wood. Whoever people think I look like, I don’t care who they think I look like! I am ME! I am an individual. I am a person. I am a human being. I am not some piece of meat for some idiotic guy’s “harem”!
Having found this site and read the above article, at least I can validate to myself that there is nothing wrong with me and that it’s the guys out there who are the problem. I have heard from women who are very attractive and from others who are plain that they are not finding any “good guy” out there. All that is crossing their path are players and cheaters.
It doesn’t matter if the lady is beautiful (yet not conceited), loving, kind (takes the guy to the hospital when it appears that he is having a heart attack on a date with her and he refuses to call an ambulance and then changed her plans the next day in order to stay with him and make sure he was all right), patient (completely impotent guy, yet she ignored the situation and didn’t place sexual demands on him), sensual, highly sexual (so it was easy for her to be pleased with whatever minor thing the guy could manage to do sexually), a good conversationalist, a loyal friend, funny, fun to be with, enjoys a variety of social activities (so the guy is able to go to many different places on outings with her and have a great day together), highly educated with an advanced degree (yet not acting like an intellectual or expecting the guy to be one), playful, youthful (naturally youthful, not trying to “act” young), has a job, owns her own house, gets along well with the former husband (so there is no crazy ex hanging around), and she has an over-all balanced life. The guy still doesn’t want to be with a woman like that.
I don’t even use the word “man” any longer. As you might have noticed, I use the word “guys.” To me, the word “man” has a very special meaning, and I use it ONLY when referring to a male who is honorable, kind, loving, has morals, and is MONOGAMOUS. That is a man to be honored, respected, and looked up to. It’s the type of man that the lady who is with him should, every once in a while, let him know that she appreciates him.
If a guy can’t honor his lady by being exclusively hers, just as she is exclusively his, and by developing not just an exciting yet soothing and calm physical, emotional, sensual, sexual, and spiritual relationship, I have NO interest in him. In fact, I have become so disappointed, angry, resentful, and now repulsed by men, that I can’t imagine why I ever thought they were to be respected and valued. As a result of my very negative experiences since I divorced and started dating 6 years ago, I stopped dating 3 years ago after my last major hurt. I chose not to continue putting myself out there only to be emotionally injured by those creeps masquerading as “nice guys.” Essentially, I lost trust in my ability to judge guys and thus to choose correctly in deciding whether I should give my time to the guy and date him or whether to pass on it.
As a 53-year-old woman, having been married for almost 25 years to a man who was definitely relationship material, who is monogamous, who enjoys being married, and who likes being with his lady (he remarried one year after our divorce), I am not about to settle for some over-the-hill, over-weight, unkept, ungroomed slob (no hair where it’s supposed to be – on the head, and a bunch of hair where it’s not supposed to be – the face and mouth), who can’t even function sexually, yet who disrespects me and puts my health and my very life at risk by trying to have sex with everything that moves – whether he is actively seeking out the women or whether he just takes what comes his way in the form of women who throw themselves at men. Those women play a huge part in today’s male player/seducer/cheater problem. Bottom line: there are no morals nowadays. The so-called Women’s Lib movement destroyed any advantage or “power” that women had and exponentially increased the power that men have over women. Very ironic, because that is not what the Women’s Lib was trying to do, but it’s what they got through their misguided and short-sighted conduct.
In this modern day, the guys all want to be “free” to do what they want, when they want it, with whoever they want it. This is the result of their being self-centered, selfish, egotistical and self-indulgent. The freedom they think they have by being “free” to be with whoever strikes their fancy at any point in time is no freedom at all; it is actually a prison where the guys are slaves to their own self-indulgence! Mutual in-love and mutual love free us from the chains of our own selfishness and makes each of us a better person for ourselves and for our beloved. It leads to the highest level of love that results in a spiritual bonding.
Enough said.
October 20, 2011 at 3:46 AM
It has been very helpful for me to vent my frustrations – nay, resentment ( :)) on this page. I feel my sense of humor inching to the surface again.
Now, to the point, I did want to add one more factual observation. It is this: I don’t think that guys are “afraid” of beautiful or of very attractive women.
I think that nowadays, the issue is sex. The guys are focused on sex, so as soon as they get a whiff of the fact that the woman is a LADY, that she RESPECTS HERSELF, and thus she is not going to be spreading her legs any time soon (or perhaps ever, for that matter, if she doesn’t develop an attraction for the guy during the “get-to-know-each-other” stage), the guy won’t even give her the time of day or spend any time in a conversation with her.
There are so man IDIOTIC GUYS out there who, as soon as they meet the lady, start talking about sex. I had one moron ask me, within 20 minutes of having our first conversation over a dinner, how long I waited before having sex. I felt offended and insulted by his lack of manners and social skills. Another guy stated to me, again within the first 20 minutes or so of conversation, that he didn’t date women who hadn’t had sex in over 2 years, then proceeded to ask me when was the last time I had sex. Yet another guy took me to an initial dinner and as dinner was ending, asked me to go to his house to see his garden and his collection of various types of peppers. I seriously doubt that he wanted to show me the peppers in his garden – the only pepper he wanted me to see was the one attached to his body! I gave him the answer he deserved; he then backtracked and said I had misunderstood his intentions and reverted to masquerading as a “gentleman;” he asked me out on a second date, and when I didn’t go back to his house after the second date, he didn’t call again, which was perfectly AOK with me because I had no intention of wasting any more of my time on someone who I had been able to determine was a player (and an unattractive one at that) looking for a desperate broad who would spread her legs as soon as possible.
Where…oh, where…are the REAL MEN?! If I find them, I am going to establish an auction house and “sell” them to the highest female bidder. :)
October 20, 2011 at 3:58 AM
Thank you for your passionate comments, A.S. I am sorry to hear about your all-too-common experiences with guys who give men a bad name. However, I can assure you that the issue is NOT sex. I stand by the statement that a good percentage of men are intimidated by beautiful women and wouldn’t dream of asking such a woman out for the reasons laid out in this post. Unfortunately that means a lot of good men and good women are not spending time together.
October 20, 2011 at 5:25 PM
Thanks for the info, Phil. It’s helpful to hear a guy’s perspective. However, I do have to share that I (and most women I have spoken with or heard speak on this issue at workshops and conventions, which is hundreds by now) believe a lot of guys have no problem inviting a beautiful woman out, but once they can tell that she is not promiscuous, based on her behavior, how she carries herself, the topics of conversation that she will enge in and not engage, they will not continue asking her out. It appears to be as simple as that.
Case in point, the thousands of nasty “personals” listed on a daily basis by men on Craigslist (which, in its failure to remove explicit sexual messages and ads, has become a promoter of casual sex, porn, prostitution, and child rape).
As to men approaching beautiful women. The first part of the issue is having the guys approach us and talk to us; then the second part of the issue is whether they approached us because there is something in us that they liked (more than just our looks) and they want to get to know us better, or whether they are just trying to figure out whether we will agree to sex quickly or whether we are real women, which means that we view sex as part of a loving relationship and not just as a stand-alone activity.
Well, I think this is my last post in the thread. I shared everything that I thought was important and that might help other women. I could have written it better, but hey, writing on the fly like this is not easy. :)
Ciao.
October 20, 2011 at 6:02 PM
Everything you said is accurate, A.S., as long as you’re talking about the kind of men who are hunters or predators. I can assure you that not all men are like that. Not by a long shot. It’s understandable that you and the women you talk to don’t see this because, as I wrote in the post, since beautiful women are only approached by hunters, they understandably think that most, if not all, men treat women the way that hunters do. The nice guys who are not looking only for sex are the very ones who are too intimidated by your beauty to approach you. Believe me, as a guy, I know what I’m talking about.
December 6, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Hi, Phil – thanks so much for directing me to your blog! I find this subject infinitely fascinating. Although I have lots of experience in the dating world, I’ve never tried to put some of these concepts into words. I am also in the unusual situation of being an escort, but that aside, when I’m out and about on a Friday night with the girls, generally no one will come up to us! If a guy does, he’s usually drunk (liquid courage-haha) and we just politely send him on his way. I have personally never had much experience with the hunter type of guy. I have had that type ask me out, date me and turn out not to be a hunter any more – I’ve gone out with a guy that people would label a “player” and I would have no idea!
Maybe it’s the way I handle those guys? I personally won’t engage in conversation for long with someone who isn’t acting respectfully. It’s easy to tell when someone is just trying to get you into bed. Of course I want an attractive man to be attracted to me. There’s a big and obvious difference between someone being sexually stimulated by my beauty and approaching me because of that and someone who’s trying to f$*k me.
Why give those hunter guys a chance to be hunters? Why not make them communicate with you on your terms? I have “rules” for dating and one of them is I don’t ask men out and I don’t have casual sex. People may find that odd because I am an escort, but in my personal life, I demand a lot from someone who I’m going to spend my “free” time with : ) I have casual sex for a living, I’m not going to do it for entertainment or because I’m seeking some kind of fulfillment.
What makes those men hunters any way? Maybe the way they have been treated by women – maybe they are used to women objectifying them, so they are just going with it? I’ve found that men who have that attitude will tone it way down when they know that you aren’t going to be an “easy” mark. When you demand respect, they will give it – if they won’t they are a sociopath, so no loss there! If you make the hunter pursue you on your terms, you can get what you want – you just have to know what you want and be honest about it. There are some guys who are hunters because no one has ever told them to cut the crap. And you don’t have to do it in a mean way – do it not out of anger towards them, but out of love for yourself.
Another very important way to look at this is that we all will have reflected back to us what WE are putting out there. Perhaps taking a look at ourselves and see why we could be attracting situations that feel negative and find unfulfilling. I know when I’m having an odd meeting with a client or anyone I look at myself and focus on loving that part of me that I’m hating about them. Ultimately I know it’s me that I’m unhappy with and they are just a reflection of that. As frustrating as that can sometimes be, it’s a blessing to be presented with such opportunities.
“7) The kind of man who values emotional intimacy often looks at a beautiful women and thinks, “She’s out of my league.” That is the overwhelming reason why so many women are wondering why nobody (or at least nobody worth going out with) ever asks them out.”
I totally agree with the above. What I’ve had happen is guys who I was interested in be interested in me, but do nothing about it because they thought I wouldn’t be interested in them. I thought they weren’t interested in me! Of course when a guy does nothing, a woman assumes he’s not interested. I think women perceive lack of action as a lack of interest – I know I do.
So what’s a guy to do? Being “nice” and being afraid to be shot down aren’t the same thing…my advice to these guys is to evaluate how much risk are you willing to take to have what you want? What are you worth? Have some confidence in yourself and perhaps look at your pursuit of love as a spiritual quest and trust that you’ll be guided and things will fall into place with a little courage and a little faith.
December 6, 2011 at 8:07 AM
Thanks for your well-thought-out response, Jayne. You bring up some interesting points: Do hunters ultimately want a quality relationship with a woman? If a woman demands respect from a hunter, will he show her respect? Further, is he even capable (given his current level of maturity) of showing respect to a woman? In other words, can a leopard change his spots? Certainly, many hunters eventually “grow up” and transition into family men, but I suspect that many hunters simply do not and will not ever respect women.
While it’s true that our outer world reflects our inner world and we attract into our lives the kind of people who are best suited for what we need to learn, I’m not at all comfortable extending that line of reasoning to the theme of this post: that attractive women tend to attract self-centered men who view women as prey. That’s simply a function of how men are wired and the way many of them view women in general.
Your advice to guys to have more confidence and self-worth is sound, but of course that doesn’t mean it’s easy or that it’s going to happen. I know many people who need more self-confidence and self-worth in their lives, but my encouragement falls on deaf ears. How will they ever get to the point of having more confidence and courage? I think you’re right on when you suggest that love be viewed as a spiritual quest. A natural extension of your recommendation is that everyone view life itself as a spiritual quest. That approach has indeed been the salvation of many, but like all ideals, few choose that path and even fewer walk far enough down it to achieve lasting results.
September 21, 2012 at 2:12 PM
I am getting lonely and fed up. I am supposed to feel attractive but how attractive does anyone feel who never gets approached by men? It’s hard because it’s taboo to talk to your friends and family about how difficult it is being beautiful and getting treated badly by men. On the rare occasion I have tried to talk about it, I instantly get the people I’m talking to’s back up and they start treating me like I am up myself or conceited, but the whole reason I am wanting to talk about it is because I am having a problem. I am reaching out for help, but if the problem is wondering if you’re too beautiful to attract men and too intelligent and outspoken to attract men, then people think you are trying to say you are better than everyone else! It really makes you feel rubbish inside if you let it. I get a hard time from other women probably partly due to my looks. But I am single while averagely pretty friends of mine get all the attention. I’m always surprised when my brother or a friend or boyfriend tells me of the way men look at me! When I ask them if that’s true, they say “of course!” as if it’s obvious and a taken-for-granted fact! But if this is happening, then the men must look away the moment I look at them so I don’t see it. One of my own brothers is very jealous of my looks and is nasty to me about it. I promise you that I am a very caring and compassionate person and good company from what I can tell. I’m not at all arrogant. I’m not mean. I don’t talk about people behind their backs. I don’t put people down. And I get a lot of crap from a lot of people. When I stand up to them, I give them proof that I am a ‘bitch’ like they want me to be to justify why they don’t like me, when I seriously give them no real reason. I just want to meet a man and pardon me for wanting a good looking man. I’m good looking and I like looks in a man, so shouldn’t I be able to be with someone who is on my level? But the good looking men are often players who want to use me. I want to be seduced, but as you say, the ones who can seduce are greedy. I want someone who loves me. Someone I can start a family with. Someone kind. I have ended up in controlling relationships in the past and now I am wondering if my looks make men more likely to want to keep me on a short leach and if I accepted the poor treatment because at least it was some sort of commitment? I had a relationship with a guy who put me on a pedestal and it was healing after an abusive relationship, but so claustrophobic that I had to end it. The two happiest relationships I’ve had have been with womanizers who really appreciated me. They would have cheated on me eventually of course, but while they lasted, those guys made me feel like the centre of their universe, respected and cherished. I’d have been their number one woman, but there would have been others behind my back in time I’m sure.
Is it too much to ask that a guy who doesn’t think they are good enough for me, but who I think is good enough for me to start to see themselves that way?
My friends are getting married and I don’t even have a boyfriend. My trust in men is fairly low and I am being cautious about the guy’s intentions… none of this is a recipe for lasting love though and I’m really frustrated at this point.
Can’t the so-called nice guys stop being so shallow and look past a woman’s looks for a change? They might think they are doing so by picking an average looking partner, but actually they are not, because if their idea is that pretty women don’t have personalities then they are extremely shallow.
Fed up.
September 21, 2012 at 2:34 PM
I hear you. This is why I wrote this post—to give women some insight into how men think so they can break this type of cycle. Everything you said is completely legitimate and entirely consistent with what I’ve seen over the years. Everything, that is, except your last line: Nice guys don’t think that pretty women don’t have personalities. That’s not it at all; they’re simply too intimidated to initiate a conversation. And no, it’s not too much to ask that you find the guy that’s right for you. I don’t know if this is helpful, but in my view the best thing you could do is join an online dating service and start e-mailing guys you connect with. Men who are too intimidated by your beauty to approach you in person are more likely to engage with you online. I’ve found that e-mail is the fastest route to emotional intimacy and really connecting with someone on a deep level. Then, when you agree to meet, you will have established a solid foundation that will greatly reduce the intimidation factor. Your mindset is also vitally important. If you think you’ll continue to scare off nice guys, you probably will. Instead, if you affirm things like “I am open to being approached by a kind, considerate man” and “I am ready to be with the man of my dreams,” you will be energetically more likely to attract what you are affirming. I wrote a post about affirmations that you may find helpful: https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/affirmations/. I hope you find what you’re looking for.
September 21, 2012 at 2:44 PM
By the way, never ever ever put anyone on a pedestal, because if you put them up there, the only way they can look at you is by looking down on you. This is not a character flaw in either party, this is a behavioral mistake.
September 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM
I couldn’t agree more. It’s a mistake I used to make until I realized the same thing.
November 22, 2012 at 6:09 PM
This is a great article and I identify with it completely. I’m a model(although currently finishing up my business degree) and most men say my beauty and height intimidates them. The only men I’ve seem to attract are older, wealthy, and unavailable. The attention was fun in my early 20’s, but I’m beginning to wonder if there are any men about there who don’t see me as a trophy girlfriend or piece of ass. I’m not complaining about being attractive, it just seems like no matter how hard I try to work on myself (school, therapy, meditation, working hard, and being financially independent) men can’t see past my face or body. I just rekindled an affair because I’m over being alone.
November 22, 2012 at 8:19 PM
I’m sorry to hear you’re in that situation, Evie Rose, but I’m not at all surprised. It’s so true that beauty can be as much a curse as it is a blessing. I hope you find what you’re looking for, and sooner rather than later. Best of luck to you.
November 26, 2012 at 12:12 PM
This is all good to hear. I am the same. I used to model. I am 5’10”. I am in my 30s but look 25, very intelligent and accomplished. And I’ve seen and heard from men my whole life who say “when they were single, they’d have loved to go out with me”. When the whole time, I figured they did not like me for one reason or another and I only got approached by sleeze-bags. Also, the majority of men who contact me online are looking for a “conquest” with a beautiful woman, even when I clearly state I am looking for a relationship. Or they are way older than me, looking for arm-candy. I am of course looking for a man who has taken care of himself; however I am not looking for Mr. Perfect! Most beautiful women are nice and just looking for someone who is nice and average-attractive and who will value her. Beautiful women learn early that attempting to date equally attractive men is not worth it, because they are making their way towards sleeping with every woman on the planet and tend to be ego-maniacs. Therefore, we only looking for average!!! And nice. And balanced. That’s it!
November 26, 2012 at 12:17 PM
Thank you for your comments, Julie. Your experience perfectly illustrates the dilemma faced by beautiful women. If only more men would realize that they don’t have to have movie star looks to date women like you. Perhaps you have given them hope by leaving this comment! Good luck, and I hope you find a man who appreciates you for who you are!
January 15, 2013 at 6:58 AM
So happy I found your article/blog above (waaaayyyy above – it’s great the dialogue has continued this long). I personally don’t see it, but have a dear/like-a-sister friend who assures me that this is my problem with men. Her husband, who is like one of us (one of the most secure men we’ve ever met and totally her soul-mate), insists that is the problem as well.
As many of your respondents have said, being too attractive is not a subject you can discuss with most people, least of all family and girlfriends. I’m in my mid-fifties, and I would have thought that being older would have fixed this problem, but alas, no such luck. I still find the (very few) men who have the nerve to ask me out are indeed the egomaniacs who just want the status of a beautiful woman with them.
However, my request to you is a little different. Since 2002, I’ve been on a wonderful spiritual journey and have truly changed my life. I understand so much more and am genuinely happy to be myself. I do continue to want a man to share my life with as an equal, but now I only want someone who is pretty far down the spiritual path as well. Do you know of a group where like-minded spiritual people congregate? I did look into an online dating site that said they were spiritual, but it was filled with too many people who seem to have gone off the deep end, missing the simple essence of it all.
Thank you.
January 15, 2013 at 8:11 AM
Thanks so much for writing, Victoria! I’m very glad to hear that your exploration of spirituality has changed your life for the better. I’m only bringing this up because of your question, but my book, “Through God’s Eyes: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World,” has a chapter on love and relationships called “Behold Your Beloved.” I think this chapter may give you some helpful insights. As for groups of like-minded people, I’d first ask you what, if any, spiritual or religious affiliation resonates with you. I personally belong to Self-Realization Fellowship, a spiritual organization founded by Paramahansa Yogananda, author of the spiritual classic, “Autobiography of a Yogi.” I know many people in SRF who found their spouse by joining this spiritual family because they were able to connect at such a deep, meaningful level. Of course, it doesn’t matter what path you follow. The point is, you have a much better chance of finding that special someone on whatever path speaks to your heart. If you do not belong to any kind of spiritual or religious organization, then, yes, it gets more difficult. Online dating sites that claim to be spiritual are a good place to start. Another source would be Meetup groups (meetup.com). If you can’t find a Meetup group in your area with a spiritual bent, it’s easy to start one yourself. Attending spiritual conferences is another way to meet like-minded people who are serious about their spiritual lives. If you live in or near a big city, there almost certainly will be some kind of conference or expo in your area. Another option would be to attend retreats/workshops/cruises with spiritual authors whose books resonate with you. Best of luck with your search!
February 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM
Reading your post couldn’t have come at a better time for me, Phil. I now realize that I am not alone in the cruel world of dating. I’ve always asked myself “why can’t I find a normal guy that has all the same wonderful qualities that I have…is it really that hard?” I would get all dolled up and looking pretty only to be approached by those guys that wanted one thing only. I’ve always thought that the problem was me. So many of my friends tell me to not be picky, to just go for it, to try but when I do it always ends up the same way, me being single and feeling worse about myself than before.
It has been a struggle for me as I am a believer that it should be the man that approaches the woman and not the other way around. Even though I have confidence in how I look and feel about myself, sometimes I feel like there is something wrong with me and that if I ask someone out they will say no and I will feel bad. I realize that that is ridiculous but it wasn’t until I read your article that it all made sense to me smoehow. I shouldn’t be afraid of approaching a guy. You said that the nice guys are the ones who don’t do the asking and that they should “man up.” Perhaps I should also “man up” and start doing the asking instead of alwasy waiting for them to come to me.
I’ve had two solid relationships in my life that are noteworthy: one lasting 7 years and the other only 2. Both ended the same way with the guys saying that I would be better off without them. I am now 36 and coming dangerously close to “missing the boat” when it comes to marriage and children. When it happens I want it to be right and I won’t settle for anyone just to obtain my goal. What’s that expresson?? The turtle always wins the race!
My fight is not yet over Phil, you have inspired me to think and act a little differently. Those that are worthy will show themselves and it will be up to me to weed out the sheep from the wolves.
Thank you!! and wish me luck :)
February 3, 2013 at 2:00 PM
Thanks for writing, Kay. Your experiences certainly support the theme of this post. What so many women don’t understand is that the more dolled up they get, the less chance they have of attracting the kind of guy they want to attract. Another point that women often fail to take into account is that many guys won’t take the chance to ask a beautiful woman out because they fear that they will be rejected. You just said that you felt the very same way yourself. So the situation is: You won’t ask a guy out because you’re afraid they will say no and you’ll feel bad. The guy is thinking the same thing about you. So nobody asks anybody out and each of you goes away frustrated and alone.
The ideal solution is to meet men in non-dating social situations and stay open to the possibility of having good chemistry with someone you can start a friendship with. Once a guy feels comfortable getting to know you, he will be less intimidated by the thought of taking the next step. Meetup groups may be worth looking into (meetup.com). There are also lots of groups that offer non-dating social activities for singles. One of my friends met his wife that way.
Good luck with your search. Now that you are more aware of the dynamics involved, you should be on your way!
February 22, 2013 at 7:13 PM
Thank you for your tweets! I’m so glad that I found out about this blog on Twitter. For years, I have been without many dates and seemingly lack of male interest. Men literally look the other way when they pass me by. As I see other women of all shapes, sizes, levels of attractivenss receive male attention, date and move into relationships. For all of my adult life, I’ve been in beauty industries – pageants, NFL Cheerleader, modeling. However, being snubbed by men made/makes me feel extremely unattractive. Then, I thought that maybe this is because I’m a minority in a small, conservative town. But other minority women were dating. I also thought that there was some type of vibe that I was exuding to repel men. I still don’t understand because I don’t consider myself so beautiful that I would intimidate men. Some times I wonder why this woman gets male attention and I do not, except for online. This puts things into perspective. Thank you!
February 22, 2013 at 7:33 PM
I’m glad you found some answers and some solace here, Anika. But I must disagree with you: I saw your Twitter photo and you are indeed quite beautiful. I hope you find what you’re looking for and the happiness that you deserve.
March 2, 2013 at 11:03 PM
I’ve been told for years (I’m 49 now) that I’m gorgeous. I still get told that. I see women much younger than I am showing signs of envy. Last year I had a 29 year old guy sending me sexually explicit emails regarding what he’d like to do to me. A few years prior to this a man around my age that I had known for a couple of weeks (and had coffee with) called me up and performed a sex act over the phone. This has been happening since I was a teenager. All I can say is that I find it weird. Perhaps this is normal and I just think it’s weird? However, I get the impression from speaking with other women that they haven’t experienced this on regular basis.
Btw, I don’t find myself THIS attractive. Therefore, I can only conclude that I’m somehow attracting nuts. My friends tell me that I AM this attractive and that I have some sort of “complex” given that I can’t see it.
I’ve never been married because I rarely ever had a man interested in me as more than a sexual object. I tell people that I have the “soul of a prostitute” because this is how I feel. Perhaps I was a prostitute in my former life (If you believe in that).
I’ve now pretty much given up hope of finding someone. I’ve learned to keep my head down and not look too friendly in order to keep the perverts away.
March 2, 2013 at 11:21 PM
I’m very sorry to hear of your experiences, Elizabeth. Are they normal? Only in the sense that it’s unfortunately normal for aggressive, self-absorbed, juvenile men to treat beautiful women as sex objects and nothing more. The problem with keeping your head down and not looking too friendly is that you’re keeping everyone way, not just the creeps. And it’s having an effect on your own self-esteem as well. Plenty of beautiful women have found good men and I hope the same for you. The more you love and accept yourself, the more likely that others will too. The world is a mirror of our inner life, and if you are able to reframe your perspective, great changes can occur. I wish you the best.
March 18, 2013 at 9:53 AM
Thank you for your blog. After reading this, I felt a lot better knowing that other women experience the same problem as I do. I think what makes things even worst for me is that I get a lot of “suspicious looks” from other women. It’s bad enough that I don’t get asked out, but also to get this kind of treatment from other women is like a kick to the groin. It always happen when I am going to social events and weddings that other women would give me this look, thinking I am going to steal their boyfriend or husband. Please keep in mind that I was covered up and I wasn’t dressing sexy or anything. I never even flirt or approach any of these men, but women have this crazy notion that I am after their man. In all my life I have never ever been a home wrecker or stolen anybody’s boyfriend or husband. I hope anybody reading this would back me up. When I tell my friends this, they think I am being silly or I should get off my high horse. Maybe this is why I don’t have a lot of female friends.
March 18, 2013 at 10:06 AM
Unfortunately, M.C., I’ve heard that form a lot of beautiful women. Not only do men feel intimidated by them, but other women are often standoffish as well. I wish you luck in finding what you’re looking for.
April 6, 2013 at 10:36 AM
Hey there, Phil.
You and many of the women here are forgetting one thing…
a lot of us guys do not want to approach a beautiful woman because there are so many who don’t make a good wife or girlfriend.
Selfish, no personality or sense of humor, no work ethic, her day is ruined because she broke a fingernail, she has to have lipstick on when going out to the mailbox are just a few reasons why.
I know, not all beautiful women are like that (and, yes, a lot of plain women are like that also), but that quality one is like a needle in a haystack, and we just don’t want to deal with it.
It has nothing to do with being a man who has the nerve to ask one out…
many of us just don’t want to.
I prefer the Sally Field type and won’t even look at a Sophia Loren. :-)
I know it is unfair, but we just can’t do it.
If we knew what she was like in the inside first, well, then, yeah. . . .
And all these women who say they are alone–uhhh, why aren’t YOU approaching him?
April 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM
I don’t know why you feel that way, Perry. Even if you have experience with women like this, it seems like you’re throwing out the proverbial baby with the bath water. This assumption sounds suspect. I know a lot of beautiful women and I haven’t seen any evidence of this. I certainly understand being attracted to down-to-earth women but plenty of attractive women are also down to earth. As for women approaching men, yes, a lot of men would welcome that, but a lifetime of social conditioning can be hard to overcome. It’s a shame that so many issues are keeping men and women apart.
April 6, 2013 at 12:16 PM
“…throwing out the proverbial baby with the bath water.”
Oh, I know–and it’s not fair to beautiful women, but there are just too many Sally Fields out there to mess with the Sophia Lorens.
“I know a lot of beautiful women and I haven’t seen any evidence of this.”
That’s because you are a very nice guy–who is also probably very forgiving. Or, you just don’t see it. :-)
Katharine Hepburn was quoted as saying, “Plain women know more about men than beautiful ones do. . . .”
That’s not entirely true, of course, but it comes close.
April 27, 2013 at 4:44 AM
So true and so sad and so frustrating. More and more I think I’m going to be alone forever. I’m told I’m in the attractive woman pool and at times I think I should have followed the gold digger path when I was younger and had chances.
I’ve tried getting close to nice guys but they’ve been rather insecure and I found out some never believed I was into them to begin with. I decided to approach a couple guys myself but they treated me like I was desperate for a relationship or just a skank looking for sex.
I’m really running out of ideas.
April 27, 2013 at 4:55 AM
I’m sorry to hear you’re frustrated, Jenna. All I can tell you is that plenty of attractive women have found wonderful partners, so the worst thing you can do is give up, because that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. What I would tell both women and men is to stay positive and dedicate yourself to continual self-improvement in every aspect of life. The better you become, the better your chances of attracting someone else at that level, and the better the odds that it will work out. Above all, never give up hope! Dreams do come true.
April 27, 2013 at 5:50 AM
“I decided to approach a couple guys myself but they treated me like I was desperate for a relationship or just a skank looking for sex.”
I would think that is a great way to weed such guys out.
So don’t stop approaching men because of doorknobs like that.
Heck, think of that as a good thing in your favor!
A guy I know has a very cute wife–down to earth, and an all-around genuinely nice woman. He says that she struck up a conversation with him while at one of the stores in the mall. They just talked like two human beings having a conversation. She invited him to have lunch with her at a place she was going to that week, and she asked him which day would be better for him.
Only complete idiots would think a woman is desperate or easy because she simply asks a man out…
and you don’t need them in your life.
April 27, 2013 at 7:00 AM
I agree with you, Perry. The key is: “They just talked like two human beings having a conversation.” This is often difficult for men to do at first because they are so distracted by a woman’s looks. They need to get past that quickly. If they can, good things can happen.
April 27, 2013 at 8:29 AM
Thanks for your reply. That is definitely seeing the glass half full :) I’m going through a really frustrating time right now. I can’t stand the “game” thing, I’d just like to spend time with a man like your friend.
April 27, 2013 at 9:09 AM
Jenna, have you tried online dating sites? That’s a good way to initiate authentic conversation as well as a good way to minimize the intimidation factor caused by your good looks. More than half of all relationships now begin online. Good luck to you!
April 27, 2013 at 10:01 AM
Or you could just start a conversation with guys.
You start conversations with women, right? It’s–basically–the same thing with men.
Then just let them know you have to go, and that you’d like to pick up where you two left off over lunch or dinner sometime. Then hand them your e-mail address.
Or, just before you leave, you could say something like, “I hope your girlfriend appreciates you,” and then see if he says that he doesn’t have one.
Sneaky, I know. :-)
I’ve done that a couple of times with women.
April 27, 2013 at 10:11 AM
Sure, Perry, it’s quite true that either gender stands a much better chance of finding someone if they are proactive instead of just waiting for someone to talk to them. That’s just a nice way to live whether or not you’re looking for a relationship.
April 27, 2013 at 11:20 AM
“The solution to this dating dilemma is obvious. As a female reader so succinctly commented: “Man up, nice guys!” After all, if a guy isn’t man enough to ask a woman out, he probably isn’t quality relationship material anyway.”
I think this bears repeating.
It’s the article’s first three sentences, but for (alleged) nice guys who are possibly already reading with a chip on their shoulders, I think it gets lost in the verbiage.
April 27, 2013 at 11:27 AM
It’s an obvious solution, M, but it isn’t that easy. Just because a man doesn’t ask a woman out because he thinks she’s out of his league doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t be great in a relationship once the connection is made. Sure, there’s probably a correlation to some degree, but it’s not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.
April 27, 2013 at 1:45 PM
@Phil: I never really wanted to do the internet dating thing, it seems a bit weird to try to narrow down the sort of person you want to meet, but it seems like it might be the only option left. Right now I just can’t imagine ever meeting someone.
April 27, 2013 at 2:54 PM
Jenna, i can’t stress enough the importance of staying positive. If you can’t imagine meeting someone, you won’t. And the right kind of guy will be much more likely to ask you out if he perceives you as positive and cheerful. if you want to attract a positive, loving guy, you need to be positive and loving.
April 28, 2013 at 3:08 AM
@Phil: thank you. You’re right. It seems I don’t even want to be around myself very much let alone someone else. Started on meditation this morning, working on changing my mindset :) Thank you for your words!
April 28, 2013 at 10:46 AM
I’m so glad to hear that, Jenna! I wasn’t intending to mention my book, but based on your comments, I think you may find value in it. You can learn about it at http://GodsEyesBook.com. I wish you all the best!
April 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM
awww yes!! this is so perfectly explained, thank you :)
April 29, 2013 at 2:43 PM
You’re very welcome, Tiffany!
May 2, 2013 at 11:49 PM
MC said: “I think what makes things even worst for me is that I get a lot of “suspicious looks” from other women. It’s bad enough that I don’t get asked out, but also to get this kind of treatment from other women is like a kick to the groin.”
*****
I get this as well. They look suspicious, frightened, vaguely hostile. I have a feeling that my appearance was one reason a successful female physician didn’t want to hire me as a private tutor for her daughter. I also think I was fired from a job because of my appearance. The owner hired me and his wife fired me. I ran into a former co-worked and she confirmed that this was indeed the reason.
I am not overly made-up and I don’t run around in sexy clothing. In fact, I prefer baggy stuff and flats. It I wore sexy clothing I would be under constant assault.
May 3, 2013 at 3:54 AM
Unfortunately, this dynamic is all too common, Elizabeth. Beautiful women not only have to put up with unwanted, aggressive behavior from men, but vaguely hostile reactions from women as well. Many women do not want their husbands to associate with beautiful women in any way, and are deeply suspicious of women who are better looking than they are. That’s why I wrote that beauty can be as much a curse as it is a blessing. Your last line is very telling. Yes, if you dolled yourself up, you would indeed be under constant assault. You would have to put up with aggressive behavior from men as well as withering looks from women. It’s somewhat of a paradox that unattractive women often dream of being beautiful, not realizing the thorns that come with the roses.
May 3, 2013 at 1:53 PM
Now I won’t say I’m the hottest chick ever nor am I the ugliest. But either way I can’t even say I’ve been approached by men in the correct fashion. I was rejected as a teen because of silly reasons like being too flat chested, my sideburns were too long or I was so “off-standish” actually I was extremely shy and just the thought to talk to someone was frightening! Yet being a grown woman, not only am I still rejected by men, some even friendzone me or even boldly tell me how I’m not good enough or how I don’t compare to other women. I’m all for comparisons but don’t say how all the women in the women in the world are better than me.
Yet through it all, I attract the guy who doesn’t even hint or patiently suggests for sex. He comes right out for it. Unfortunately it’s been more men like that over even the slightest decent one. But not just one race, no these men come from all over the world and I’m sorry but I hate to have to say it’s all men. Not one can show me different or say well hey we’re not all the same. No same routine, same outcome and sane results just many more men than one would expect.
Honestly I’m fed up, I tried my best but I refuse to be someone’s sex toy while the lousy girls are getting the world handed to them. Apparently I’m pretty awesome at being single, since I never had a date or a boyfriend to dote on.
May 4, 2013 at 5:54 AM
I’m sorry you’ve had such difficulties with men, ItzMzBunny. However, your comment, “I hate to say it’s all men,” is dead wrong. As I say in the post, “Since beautiful women are only approached by hunters, they understandably think that most, if not all, men treat women the way that hunters do.” Since the only men you seem to have contact with are ones that act like tis, you naturally assume that all men are like that. I can emphatically assure you that that is not the case. The kind of men who are my friends are not like that at all and wouldn’t dream of using and degrading women in that way. So please don’t give up hope. You just need to meet a better quality of men. Since I know nothing about you or your circumstances, I can’t offer any further guidance. However, I can tell you that if you continue to have the same attitude about men and about life in general, you will continue to attract the same kind of men and experiences. I wish you luck in breaking out of that cycle.
May 4, 2013 at 4:33 PM
I understand that fully Phil trust me I do. But that’s my point. It’s not always the “hunter” even the decent or nice men don’t give me the time of day, or treat me like a best friend. I’ll even bet that your friends wouldn’t give me the time of their yesterday. I have standards and things I find is necessary in a person yet I still end up with crap. For example if I go after a college educated man, he automatically writes me off because I didn’t graduate college. Which I believe is unfair. Or I’ll meet a guy who’s nice that I hit it off with and have a good time with and when I ask about a relationship or what kind of girl he likes I’m immediately told that he’s not interested in me.
I’ve gone out, I went with friends, went without friends, dressed up and looked nice. I still get ignored. Regardless of my attitude on this I can’t get excited when every guy I approach or go near automatically walks away from me or better yet walks around me like I’m just some debris on the sidewalk.
The worst part most of the potentially good men are taken or married or in a situation they don’t know how to leave. Yet think they van fix it by finding another woman to make up for the slack.
You and all the other men can disagree with me. But I’m being truthful and honest. All men are the same. I’ve yet to find one or have one approach me to show me otherwise. I get nothing can be perfect. But come on I can’t even get asked out before I’m getting told I have to have sex with him. Vying for a man’s attention may be most women’s priority. But for me it’s not. I’m just tired of seeing men give excuses for the way they do things and act another way while meaning something entirely unrelated to the situation at hand.
Now explain to me why I’ve never dated or had a boyfriend?? Never carried myself as promiscuous, even though there were rumours spread about me. Where sex is concerned I stand my ground, I don’t do free sex for nothing. I don’t drink and therefore going to the bar or club is out of the question. I don’t wear make up because I think it’s silly to put on a Halloween mask and pretend to be someone I’m not.
I’ve seen men go off and marry an unattractive woman. Yet tell me all I’m good for is sex and nothing else. If by any chance the decent man is in the corner of somewhere watching, yeah he’s the same one who says I’m his bestest friend in the whole wide world and tries to see if Ms. Beauty Queen will give him an ounce of her attention.
I think men are superficial individuals who can’t come to a happy medium when it comes to what they want. I consider myself a good woman and even my family does yet I get told by all the wonderful men that I’m not good enough and I need to learn to stop being stingy with goods.
Hey you tell me how to correct it I’ll try it. But your conversation only talks about a percentage of women who put on make up to become that sexual vixen who whine about being disrespected by men yet they’re regulars at all the bars and I’ll go so far to say they lack a lot being a woman. You speak of nothing of the good girl who gets bashed by men and women and told how she’s a failure at life for not being asked out, yet she gets manipulated and disrespected and everyone says oh it’s your fault. Right.
May 5, 2013 at 6:31 AM
ItzMzBunny, perhaps in your world, “all men are the same,” but that world is a darker place than the world I live in. As a man, I can unequivocally tell you that you are dead wrong. You started off by saying, “I understand that fully Phil trust me I do.” But you’re not using that understanding to do anything positive. Your comments are drenched in negativity and you are clearly angry and bitter. For example, you trash beautiful women in the last paragraph and lump them all into a shallow stereotype to make yourself feel better about yourself. Do you not see the danger in this? This negative, bitter attitude is reflected in the way you show up in the world and affects how other people interact with you. Given that I know absolutely nothing about you or your situation, making any assumptions would be foolish on my part. All I can tell you is that the best way for anybody to be happier is to reinvent themselves by adopting a more positive, loving view of the world. If that seems impossible or laughable to you, just remember: Nothing changes if nothing changes.
May 5, 2013 at 8:10 AM
Phil, you are one nice guy.
TOO NICE!
ItzMzBunny, when someone talks like that, whether they are a man or woman, they are either exaggerating or they are the problem.
I’d ask how many men you have approached, how many approached you, and how many of them really acted like that, but I suspect that you would just exaggerate and/or make stuff up to somehow make yourself feel right.
I wonder what your friends and family would say about your situation.
I’d bet they would say that it is quite different than from what you are saying.
Yes, for many singles, it can be difficult, but too many of them make excuses, they don’t listen to friends and family, they make stuff up about their situation, and–they don’t keep trying . . .
They might as well just stay home with the cats.
Phil, you can’t help those who won’t help themselves.
May 5, 2013 at 8:12 PM
Perry, although what you’re saying is true, there are three big reasons why it’s not as easy for women to approach men as it is for men to approach women:
1) Women have had a lifetime of conditioning to wait for men to approach them. As men, we can’t even begin to comprehend how difficult it is to overcome that programming.
2) Women tend to be more self-conscious then men about their attractiveness to the opposite sex. From birth, women are taught that unless they’re beautiful, they aren’t valued. Men are taught to achieve, and that their looks aren’t that important.
3) An alarming percentage of women have been mistreated or abused by men from a young age, which can easily and understandably manifest as a reluctance to trust men, much less approach them.
It sounds like you’re a successful, decent-looking guy, Perry. But try slipping into a woman’s high heels (metaphorically speaking, of course) and imagine coming at this from a completely different angle. It might be an eye-opening experience!
May 5, 2013 at 8:18 PM
“As a man, I can unequivocally tell you that you are dead wrong”
Phil, You seem far more invested in telling ItzMizBunny that, than in helping her – you’ve done that (tell her how wrong she is) twice in two responses – and yet even though her situation and my situation are very different, I think it’s quite telling that
a) the conclusions she and I have reached about men were/are very much the same;
b) the women that disagree with your repeated conclusion that “all men are not like that” have extremely variant situations yet all seem to be reaching the same conclusion that yes, most men are indeed very much like that; and
Though I am in fact a college graduate and don’t necessarily agree with all the things she said, I do emphatically agree with ItzMizBunny that it does in fact come down to men making excuses for one another and refusing to change the one thing about all these interactions which would indeed make a huge difference in the outcomes of these situations:
– acknowledging their privileges (men are supported in our society in their failure to make any kind of effort in relationships, whereas women are required to be perfect – in looks, demeanor (sweet but not too sweet, earn enough money that she’s not a “golddigger” but not more than he does because of course that’s “emasculating”), background and domestic contribution (never mind if she’s bringing home half the bacon; she’s still the one required to “fry it all up in the pan”! — and ask for no effort and no contribution from men and defer consistently to men regardless of how badly they behave)
– changing their own behavior, and
– treating women better. You know, like fellow human beings even.
May 5, 2013 at 8:42 PM
M, I am not “invested” in telling ItzMizBunny that she’s wrong about men, I’m simply stating an unarguable fact: Not all men act like Neanderthals. As a man who has a number of caring, intelligent and enlightened male friends who honor and respect women, I know this to be true. Now, if you are saying that all the men you come in contact with are boorish, that’s another story. As I wrote in the main article, “Since beautiful women are only approached by hunters, they understandably think that most, if not all, men treat women the way that hunters do.” That’s a crucial point. And your comments as well as hers illustrate the truth of it.
As for your criticisms of men with regard to their behavior in relationships, you are oversimplifying the issue and again assuming that most, if not all, men behave badly. THe way you characterize men is like a bad stereotype. Yes, many many are like that, but to give the impression that virtually all men are like that is disingenuous. Yes, there are certainly many, many men who give men a bad name, but there are a lot of unenlightened women out there too. That doesn’t change the fact that there are countless wonderful men and women out there who are beautiful human beings. I don’t live in the world that you’re describing.
May 6, 2013 at 12:25 AM
As far as I’m concerned I do believe men are the majority of the problem. You all claim there are good guys and how women are the problem and are stingy and all want to be married. Phil, no one is saying these men don’t exist. Maybe it should be stated that there are far more few than people say. Example oh there are 1000 good men but in actuality there are only 500 or maybe even 100. My father was a damn good man.
But I do agree with M. Even though I wasn’t able to finish college due to not having enough money. I thought I could get the pick of the litter. Unfortunately even the college educated men say they don’t want to be bothered because I’m a flunky. There’s always an excuse a man uses when he doesn’t want to be bothered. I always got, It’s because you’re flat-chested, or you’re too fat, now you’re too skinny, you have real hair, you don’t wear enough make up, you’re never going to be good enough, you’re not this and you’re not that…
Regardless if I change my hair style or color, buy new clothes or dress up I always get overlooked. Hell the guy I fell in love with not only walked past me on the same sidewalk he would act like I didn’t deserve to walk on the same ground. I got dumped by my prom date and when I asked him why he frolicked off like he just got a load of candy. I never did get a response but so the rumors said he did it because I was hideous ugly. That’s always the main excuse, I’m hideous ugly. Then what’s this soulmate stuff everyone says??
Some of us have reasons why we shy away from me, and it’s for good reasons too. There are sick men out there. Many women are left single, confused and damaged goods. I don’t know about where you live, but where I live women who are married or with children are considered the best women. They are the alpha women.
Excuse me if I came off bitchy mean or bitter, but to say one thing when others are happening isn’t good either. Your friends may be great Phil, I won’t deny that, I don’t know them. But those same “great” guys are the ones I approach or say hello or smile to and I get friendzoned by them. Same goes for women who whine and moan about all the good men, yet they have them in their friendzone.
I need more than words or actions to say someone’s a good person. I want an actual result. Hearing that there are good men is like hearing unicorns are real over and over again.
Our society says that men want a size 0 bombshell who has superhuman powers and does anything he asks or wants without a fuss who works, takes care of the house and kids and in some cases is the provider. I’d rather have a guy for his sense of humor and personality than looks.
May 6, 2013 at 4:57 AM
ItzMzBunny, I needed to edit your post because the examples you gave of men behaving badly with you were too graphic. It’s awful that you’ve had so many horrible experiences with men. You’re right that there are sick men out there. The world is full of dysfunctional people, and you seem to have run into more than your share. Since I don’t know anything about you, all I can say is what I tell everyone regardless of their circumstances: The best chance you have to live a more positive, loving life is continuous self-improvement. Life tends to get better, and you tend to meet higher-quality people, as you become a better person. That holds true for women and men in whatever situation they are in life.
May 6, 2013 at 9:32 AM
Hey there, Phil.
I’m a columnist (and researcher) for singles (soon to be syndicated), so I’d like to continue this.
http://www.datingcolumnist.com/
You said:
1) “Women have had a lifetime of conditioning to wait for men to approach them. As men, we can’t even begin to comprehend how difficult it is to overcome that programming.”
I respectfully disagree with ya on that.
I’m OK in the looks department, but I am also bald and short (5’6″). Look at my pic in my profile page that I send to newspaper and magazine editors.
Even though it has been said over and over again that women find these type of guys less appealing, I’m not “conditioned” into this thinking.
For years now, women have known that they can approach guys.
We aren’t back in the 18th and 19th centuries.
They just don’t want to do it.
And all we are basically talking about is JUST starting a conversation with a man, just like she would with a woman.
It’s two human beings talking to one another.
Some may say that it is hardwired in them.
As a researcher, I can tell you, that it is NOT.
They are more caring and understanding, but starting a conversation with a man and then asking them out is not part of their–makeup.
You said:
2) “Women tend to be more self-conscious then men about their attractiveness to the opposite sex. From birth, women are taught that unless they’re beautiful, they aren’t valued. Men are taught to achieve, and that their looks aren’t that important.”
I disagree.
Again, look at all the short, plain-looking guys out there.
They can approach women, which they do–so women can approach men.
They may be–MAY BE–more self conscious, but that is no excuse. And deep down, they know it.
And A LOT of men are concerned about their looks and height when it comes to approaching women.
You should hear the things I hear from singles out there.
3) “An alarming percentage of women have been mistreated or abused by men from a young age, which can easily and understandably manifest as a reluctance to trust men, much less approach them.”
I agree.
Sad thing is, so many men think that if a woman doesn’t give out her number, she isn’t interested.
What bull.
“But try slipping into a woman’s high heels. . . .”
I have. You should see me in a red chiffon dress.
I’m hot!!
:-)
May 8, 2013 at 5:56 AM
Perry, it’s true that the first two points are not etched in stone and that more women are willing to approach men, but societal conditioning for women to wait to be asked out is still strong. Likewise, women obsess about their looks and attach their attractiveness to their self-worth far more than men do, although as you pointed out, those lines are blurring as well. A whole lot of research shows that men are typically attracted to women for their looks while women are often (not always, to be sure) attracted to men for their ability to provide security.
Finally, I will take your word for it that you’re hot in a red chiffon dress. Please don’t send any photos. I want to be able to sleep at night.
May 8, 2013 at 11:53 AM
@Perry:
Excuse me but I must point out that you don’t seem to know what you’re talking about. Women HAVE been programmed not to approach men but the bigger problem as far as I can tell is that men have been programmed to be skeptical of women approaching them. I HAVE tried approaching men and I will try again when I actually have time but the times I tried the responses were NOT positive.
I’m considered a pretty woman. I modelled when I was younger and even in my 30’s I’ve got a much more attractive body than many, many 20 year old’s around. It’s not unusual for people to think I’m 10 years younger.
The type of man who usually approaches me? Yes, the type of man who approaches pretty women. The type of men I’ve tried to approach? I haven’t done it many times, sure, but the times when I was interested in the person (as opposed to being interested in sex) I’ve gone up to guys who looked like nice, normal people. They were skeptical and eventually they’d turn away or they weren’t sure how to be a “man” I guess, never taking any sort of initiative when we went out or they thought I was looking for sex.
And sure, I’ve picked up a few very hot men because of their looks and only for a fling (usually after a few drinks) and no problems there but whenever I’ve approached men for who they are it’s not been pretty. Unless you’re in Scandinavia or Holland men are not comfortable with women approaching them and the men who are ok with it don’t seem to have any guts.
Heck, I’m still getting over the last man I approached, who very recently hurt my feelings to an extent that’s left me dumbfounded. He seemed like a nice guy but it seems he doesn’t have much respect for me – probably because I approached him. Maybe that’s the keyword: respect. Men don’t normally respect women who approach them.
You have no idea how frustrating it can be.
May 9, 2013 at 4:41 PM
I’m sorry you’ve had those experiences, Jenna. Personally, I think it’s great when women approach men. I would encourage you to keep trying. Hopefully, your run of bad luck will end soon. Even though social conditioning can be transcended, it’s still the norm for men to approach women, and too many people aren’t comfortable venturing into the unknown. Thankfully, from what I understand, the younger generation is already starting to level the playing field.
May 9, 2013 at 5:10 PM
Actually, Jenna, as a writer for singles, I do know how frustrating it can be–for both men and women.
I also know that they make excuses for their situation.
“Women HAVE been programmed not to approach men. . . .”
I don’t know where you got that one, but it is not in a woman’s hard wiring.
I will say that it is harder for you women, like Phil pointed out, but let’s not make this out to be a mountain to climb.
I have lost count the number of women I have talked with who either asked out the man they are now with or they gave him “that look.”
I wouldn’t be here today if my mom believed in that crap.
There’s nothing more flattering to a man when a woman shows him an interest.
Not even a pat on the back from the boss and a raise compares to it.
You can sure bet that I’ll spin on my heels to catch up with a woman who passed me while giving me that look and a smile.
And I have!
Yes, there are some men who act like a door knob when a woman does this, or when she suggests continuing the conversation over lunch or dinner, but these women should look at that as a good thing, because that type of man isn’t worth her time anyway.
What better way to weed out the “little boys”?
How you look at all of this is how easy or difficult you will make it for yourself.
May 9, 2013 at 5:24 PM
Perry, I think you hit upon a useful statement that Jenna and other women can agree with: Men can be doorknobs.
May 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM
Interesting discussion. I don’t have any trouble approaching men. However, I’m careful about it because experience has shown me that if I express even the slightest interest in a man he’s all over me. Even smiling and saying “hi” has produced unwanted attention. I would approach men more often if they didn’t go all horndog on me. I think I mentioned previously that I don’t get flowers. I get porno emails. I asked an older, very attractive male friend who had a lot of girlfriends throughout his life and he said that I’m “very sexy”. I have no idea what it is about me that makes me “sexy”….but whatever it is it hasn’t benefited me in any way. You know the film “Malena”? My life has been something like that. It has been very lonely because I don’t want to receive porno emails or listen to someone pleasure themselves over the phone. One guy took me to dinner and thought it was OK to grab my hand and place it on his you know what. “This is what you do to me.” This was a FIRST date. Am I just being prudish or is this stuff truly out of line? The very next man that was interested in me was the one who started sending porno emails. My friends think it’s funny. I’m just horribly disappointed. I see men behaving properly with other women (maybe that’s my imagination? maybe this stuff is more common than I think?) and I feel totally left out.
May 12, 2013 at 6:50 AM
Elizabeth, what your experiences as well as the experiences of many women prove is that there is no shortage of men out there who give men a bad name. I can only begin to imagine the frustration and disgust that you and so many other women have to contend with. That said, yes, there are good and decent men out there who wouldn’t dream of treating women the way you and so many others have been treated. I wish there were some way to distinguish the good guys from the bad boys, but alas, that is more an art than a science. It’s my understanding that a lot of women give up because they assume that all men are like the men who they’ve come in contact with. I can assure you that this is not the case. But you may need to sift through a whole lot more bad eggs before you find the man who will be worthy of you.
By the way, I just checked out the synopsis of “Malena.” I had not heard of it before. Yes, it sounds like this film vividly demonstrates the truth of what I wrote in this article: “What so many admiring men and envious women fail to see is that, throughout a woman’s entire life, her beauty can be as much a curse as it is a blessing.”
May 12, 2013 at 9:03 AM
Elizabeth, I completely sympathize. I’m really trying to take the advice given here and not lose hope. I’d met a guy who seemed nice and dorky, and I thought “great, the opposite of a jerk” and I approached him. It took him 2 dates to tell me about his “interest” in porn and then he went on to tell me how much he wants to have fun sex, like in porn movies.
Since I started following this thread I started looking at couples more and I’ve noticed that there are lots of good looking men with not so good looking women but rarely do I see the opposite. In circles I used to be in earlier in life, I noticed lots of gorgeous women with not so good looking, and of course rich, men.
May 13, 2013 at 12:28 AM
Jenna, Yeah, that’s the story of my life. You should have seen the guy who sent me the porno emails. He looked so innocent. I liked him a lot so I was very hurt when I discovered what he was all about. Yes, there is something flattering about a man wanting you. However, when this is all men seem to want you for, you begin to wonder what’s wrong with you.
Phil, “Malena” really illustrates what we’re talking about. Check it out. I’ve even been beaten up by jealous women. Twice I was ambushed at night by women who were jealous of my relationship with a man they were interested in. Another time I was beaten up in the women’s restroom of a bar. In all three cases the man in question was just someone I knew…not someone I was involved with…and in all three cases the woman was not involved with the man either.
Oh, and I shouldn’t forget the girlfriend of a guy I once dated years before. For some reason she was insanely jealous of my past relationship with the guy. I had two public encounters with her. In one she saw me walking in a mall and started following me. She eventually started yelling at me. Years later she saw me sitting in a restaurant. She came over to the table and, in a menacing tone, asked me if I remembered her. I thought she was going to throw hot soup in my face.
Ten years after being punched in the face in the bar the woman who hit me was hired at my place of work. She was still hostile and I had to tell HR about it.
I don’t know if I’ve just had bad luck attracting pervs and psychos but it has been pretty rough. Now, I keep a very low profile. I haven’t had a date in around 20 years unless I count the guy who wanted me to fondle him in the restaurant which was about 7 years ago.
I don’t dislike men at all. I’m not even angry at them. I really like men. It’s more a feeling of intense disappointment that I have not been able to find a compatible man who’s interested in a long term relationship with me. The men I like just drool all over me and then go off to marry someone else.
May 13, 2013 at 5:48 AM
Elizabeth, I was cringing the whole way through this. I’m so sorry you’ve had such awful experiences. I hope the second act of your life is happier and more successful with regard to men and relationships. There are a lot of good men out there (probably fewer than I’d like to think, but sill). I hope you manage to find one.
May 13, 2013 at 2:20 PM
Elizabeth, that seems rough! I was only threatened once by a jealous woman who was interested in a guy who was interested in me. For the most part I’ve had women try to fatten me – I kid you not – and talk behind my back to scare the guys away.
Good luck to all and take care!
May 14, 2013 at 12:12 AM
I am now in a relationship, but I used to be a womanizer for a long time, and I’d like to share my perspective.
When I was 16, I was terrible with women, so I got really deeply into the seduction community, reading books and going out into the streets practicing for 8 hours per day. Back in the 90’s, the community was very messed up, and men didn’t really understand either what to do, or what the point of this activity was. At 16 it was all about sex really, and I would never approach beautiful women because of the same limiting beliefs (too beautiful, probably got a boyfriend etc…) would always come up.
The stuff I was reading was so messed up, that it translated into what someone already said: “One guy took me to dinner and thought it was OK to grab my hand and place it on his you know what. “This is what you do to me.” I literally remember reading this in a book back in the 90’s… It was ridiculous.
Over time I started to get more confident, and I started to really see what women wanted and what would work with them. But it was one particular interaction that really changed my view of the whole thing. I was 19, and for the first time I decided to approach a very beautiful woman in the street, around the time I was completely immune to rejection. She was a Russian girl, about 5 years older than me, who was actually FAR more intelligent than I had expected. The first thing I noticed is how easily she opened up to me (beautiful women, and this was a MASSIVE suprise when I found out, have always been more receptive to a man approaching than average women).
We got into this topic (I still remember, and this was 10 years ago), and she told me how lonely she was, how women were bitter to her, how the only men who would approach were sleazy bastards… She also said something interesting, which was that men wanted to be in a relationship with an average girl, and have an affair with a beautiful girl (of course, she was talking about the sort of men that would approach her).
In general, I think that is somewhat true. 99% of men (unless they are very good with women, and the only way to get good with women is by talking to a hell of a lot of them) don’t ever speak to beautiful women, and are guided by stereotypes. These are: she’s probably shallow, she’s probably not very smart, she’s probably an ice queen and will violently reject me if I approach and SHE’S PROBABLY A GOLD-DIGGER. Even though this is NOT true in most cases, the men that could possibly have the courage to approach may not want a relationship just out of the fear that the girl will eventually end up leaving him for some rich guy.
In any case, that interaction with the Russian girl back in the day really opened my eyes. I had a massive connection with her, and she did become my girlfriend for a few years. BUT, after that, my conception of women in general changed. Sex was no longer so important, because the feeling of being connected to a woman was so much more fulfilling. And I’ve learned that the only way to connect to a woman is by understanding them, and by truly loving them.
After that experience, and before my current relationship, I made it my rule of thumb to only approach beautiful women, because of how much easier it is to connect with them. An average woman will be defensive and it is very hard to get her to open up to you emotionally.
Truly, I live giving value to the world more than anything. Experience has told me that beautiful women are emotionally unsatisfied, and it gives satisfaction to myself to go up to a beautiful woman and treat her like a real person. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MOST MEN. They freeze, they break eye-contact, they don’t know what to say… They simply don’t know how to treat a beautiful woman like a human being.
At the end of the day we are all human beings… We all have the same basic set of emotions, and it’s so wonderful when we can set them off.
My advice to women would be this: The kind of man that you want is a man that is truly in touch with himself, and the kind of man that knows women. Your average “military jerk type” as has been mentioned, or the “nerdy nice guy” is not what you are looking for. Despite your social conditioning, unless you are EXTREMELY lucky to be approached by a man who knows what he wants and is willing to pursue it (probably not going to happen)… You should get over rejection and approach yourself, no matter how many men you have to wade through. Also, I have found that the men that generally know life and themselves are artists… Look at classical musicians, painters, writers, philosophers… That is where the gold is. Eventually you should find what you want.
May 14, 2013 at 6:10 AM
This is a fascinating confessional, Steve. I’m glad you got to the point where you are now. Your experience and transformation offers hope that “hunters” of women can mature and grow and get to the place where, as you wrote, “Sex was no longer so important, because the feeling of being connected to a woman was so much more fulfilling.”
You nailed it when you wrote, ” THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MOST MEN. They freeze, they break eye-contact, they don’t know what to say… They simply don’t know how to treat a beautiful woman like a human being.” Sadly, most men view a beautiful woman as a body first and a human being second, if at all. If you can change and leave your womanizing past behind, other men can get a clue and grow up, too. That’s tremendously encouraging.
The only thing you wrote that made me scratch my head was, “I made it my rule of thumb to only approach beautiful women, because of how much easier it is to connect with them. An average woman will be defensive and it is very hard to get her to open up to you emotionally.” I haven’t found this to be the case, although when I talk to women it’s almost always as friends, with no romantic agenda. I value relationships with depth to them, so I try to establish emotional intimacy with women as well as men when I first meet them. Women are far more responsive in that regard.
As for your contention that men who generally know life and themselves are artists, I would certainly agree that artistic people are generally more in touch with their feelings and passions, but I don’t know that that translates into treating women well. It’s an intriguing theory though, and one worth exploring.
Thanks again for your comments, Steve. I expect that women who read this will be encouraged by your awakening.
May 14, 2013 at 6:24 AM
This is for Steve.
I met a writer (who’s also artistic in many ways), get along great with him and he’s nice and I was amazed how much we connected. He hinted at hooking up but I didn’t believe him because let’s face it, after so many flakey people its hard to believe anything that comes from their mouth.
Well one day asked what kind of girl he was looking for since he claimed to be single. He basically told me not me in a underlying tone. Which then turned into how his ex doesn’t approve of any interaction I have with him, to how I need to stop being so flirty. So then he said to me how I was the bestest friend he ever had and how happy he was. I’ll be honest I was confused. The more he wanted to talk and spend his night’s talking with me and showing me all of his work. Then I wondered if I should ask him again or leave well enough alone. Well one day it popped up in conversation, he said I needed to find someone immediately because otherwise I would be lonely and unhappy. I asked him how he figured. He told me that I needed a relationship like the one him and his ex has.
Just like Jenna, Elizabeth and the other women has said. It’s not that we’re saying these men don’t exist. Theres just far too few of them and I know for a fact those type of men are married or taken where I live.
But I agree with what the Russian girl said, men want to wife the average plain girl and sleep with the beautiful woman. Unless they’re rich then they want the best of both worlds.
May 15, 2013 at 12:02 AM
thank you thank you THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS ARTICLE!!! omg…ive been saying this for years.. i’m a beautiful woman…really yes as someone stated earlier.. a ‘model’ but more girl next door..doesn’t matter…NO man approaches me…and i have to go online searching for freaks who are hunters who try to use me. these descriptions are SO ACCURATE…and i’m glad someone understands and has taken the time to analyze the difficulties beautiful women have to go through. most men also seem very comfortable with ‘ugly women’ and it seems the ugliest the woman and the more unappealing she is, the more the guy will want to be with her…however…i find really ‘lesser attractive’ men attempting to get with me or try their chance, i.e. meeting online…and the ‘decent looking men’ always reject me….i’ve never had a real boyfriend– ever. i’m a virgin and it sucks. i can’t get a boyfriend, i can’t even find a man to please me sexually…it sounds crazy but it’s true. if you are beautiful, men just want to use and abuse you nothing else. men also treat me terribly…reject and mistreat me…as if they are so jealous of me. i don’t get it either because i’m really nice, kind and down to earth….but the sad thing is….even the NICE guys reject me…
i’ve never had a boyfriend, only one man who used me as a trophy to torture and never had sex with me… it’s hard..and sucks…this article is TOTALLY PERFECT AND SPOT ON….TOTALLY ACCURATE…
May 15, 2013 at 12:04 AM
Jennifer, I’m sorry this is so spot on that you’ve never had any experiences whatsoever with a decent, good-hearted man. I certainly sympathize with your predicament, although I can tell you that the idea that most men want to be with unattractive women is not accurate. Not by a long shot. I don’t know what your circumstances are but it sounds like you may be in an environment where men have little respect for women. And no, that’s not ALL environments, even when it seems that way. I sure hope you have better luck with men from now on.
May 15, 2013 at 12:07 AM
Jenna,
I’ve also had the problem of women (and men) talking behind my back and implying that I’m promiscuous. In fact, everyone has had me. I’m total trash…better to avoid me completely. At least, that’s what they used to say about me in my college dorm. One guy even went around telling everyone that I worked as a prostitute for tuition money.
As a result nobody wanted to date me. Can you blame ’em? The one guy who did asked me about the rumors and then said, “It’s OK if they’re true.” I was so angry with him for saying that.
May 15, 2013 at 12:08 AM
I’m sorry you’ve been hurt by people who are acting out of jealousy, Elizabeth.
By the way, I edited your comment slightly (and other comments as well) because I want to keep this blog PG-13. It’s a good discussion, but I don’t want it to include sexually suggestive language.
May 15, 2013 at 12:20 AM
i also agree with elizabeth and others…its strange….men seem to act DECENT with other women but not with women who are beautiful. ive had guys take me out on dates..and after the first date expect ‘sex’ but will take other women on multiple dates expecting nothing. the guy said “i dont want to be used.” the funny thing is…im not a user gold digger…im the opposite..im nice kind caring…and i look nice and kind…and men label me as ‘quiet nice and kind’ so i dont get why men treat me as an object freak or someone trying to use them or yes they dont treat you as a human..you are just an object. ive been out on 100’s of dates..and after 100’s i can’t manage to meet ONE guy to date as a boyfriend. recently..a weirdo i met off the internet…took me on 2 dates.. we went to dinner once, and then to a comedy club/dinner type deal.
then, he said that he wanted to play tennis and took me to a place and said i could pick out any racquet i wanted. im not rude so i thought..ok let me get a cheap racquet. i didn’t get the jist of him buying that…but of course its his own fault if he did. we played tennis once he was horrible of course. then, he made plans with me TWICE even saying let’s go to the beach. the morning we were supposed to go he texted me saying “ok im going to daytona, i’ll meet u down there.” then he disappeared. the night before too he began texting me calling me baby and saying “you dont wanna be my baby”?? (he was a short hispanic guy and i wasnt sure really how i felt about him at that point)..i said well its too soon to figure out? then, after saying he’s going to the beach he disappeared…i had made plans to go to the beach then i thought…ok wtf? you lied to me and why?? he then wrote to me saying “well you shouldnt be mad..we’re just friends and you dont get that im a man and have needs.” again HUH?? omg…i said…even if we’re friends you dont lie to people and lead them on …then he began insulting harassing me putting me down…going nuts… i ended up telling him i was married and he hasnt responded since
also ive noticed that there is A LOT of hostlity from men i meet up with….they get angry and just want to lash out on me or put me down abuse me belittle and degrade me.i find this odd because im a beautiful nice sweet girl…why do they enjoy fighting with me and rejecting me? for instance i’ll meet up with men on first dates…i can tell the MINUTE they meet me how everything will go. usually men who can’t ‘handle me’ insult me right off the bat…or say “you seem nervous” rudely really theyre saying “im nervous and cant handle being around you so im projecting it on you”…this jerk was upset i ordered food…even a small amount–another thing ive noticed is men get FURIOUS if you eat…anything you do as a pretty woman…is being labeled as USING the guy. if you’re eating your dinner, they act as if you are using them for a free meal– other women can order 10 items and they don’t care. they can even order items and take them to go (ive talked to guys who proudly say their dates have done that and ditched them)…but if you are a BEAUTIFUL woman..God forbid you EAT your dinner…these men will CRINGE as if you are using them for food…seriously..this is how sick men are these days….so this person i ordered some food…then, we had plans to go to bike week the next day. in fact he ansrwered my ad and wanted to meet up first (meeting up first really means theyre going to reject you)…i took a chance but knew. when we left…he said “ok i can go ahead and end the night tha’t sfine”…as if he wanted more. then the next day…he texted me saying “oh you’ll have fun later”…i hada FEELING he was going to try to cancel or find an excuse. lo and behold once i got off work he began texting me saying “oh my car isnt working right its at the shop i dont know if i’ll be done in time” i think he was trying to ride in my car…finally i told him off or basically told him i think he was making up a story…b/c yes he was lying of course. then it turned into a battle…he had no desire to go to bike week with a HOT girl…he just wanted to FIGHT insult me put me down…he harassed me for DAYS just fighting me until i threatened the cops on him over n over again…then he stopped. ive learned that most men just want to FIGHT and REJECT beautiful women nothing else..no joke? they dont even want SEX just FIGHT and REJECt—and for many this seems to turn them on too??
if this was another woman…he’d take her out to dinner…go to daytona with her…treat her like a woman or queen…but if you’re beautiful..good luck?? you’ll get abused mistreated put down for ordering food…put down as an object, lied to and lead on then harassed..this is my dating life…this is all that happens NOTHING else…
May 15, 2013 at 12:22 AM
Jennifer, you’re saying that every one of the hundreds of guys you’ve dated has been like this? I think I can speak on behalf of decent guys everywhere that the men you have experience with sound like juvenile aliens from another planet.
May 15, 2013 at 12:22 AM
Steve,
The guy must have read that book. Was it about how to “pick up” women? I ask that because this sort of thing would work, I think, on a woman who has no real interest in the man. Someone who’s just interested in one night. If that’s all she wants I don’t see why she would be offended at such a move. However, if this isn’t what a man is after he definitely shouldn’t try it. I thought it was incredibly gross.
Yes, I think it’s absolutely true that men want a relationship with the average looking woman and want a fling with the attractive woman. This certainly lines up with the “offers” I’ve received over the years.
But, now I’m getting a bit long in the tooth so a lot of the trouble is behind me. I’m now free to start collecting cats.
May 15, 2013 at 1:01 AM
also i havet o comment on the things mzbunny says…again..
WOW…i have experienced the EXACT same thing from men. i get NOTHING good from men. they do the same– treat me as if i dont exist..or if they do approach me they are rejecting me putting me down insulting me in some form. i don’t get it? men cna’t even be decent or civil with me. now this doesnt go for ALL men…but for most. relationshipwise i can’t get a boyfriend either but let me explain…i am beautiful kind sweet compassionate caring monogamous loyal…HOT..yes tried to be a model gorgeous body…sexually OPEN..yes im even OPEN sometimes and even then MEN REJECT ME. NO JOKE. men treat me as if im nothing– and other women MEAN SOMETHING. like they would rather date and respect OTHER women, any other woman…except me. they put me down treat me as a lesser, disrespect, abuse mistreat, EXPECT things out of me, are demanding and if i breathe the wrong way i get dumped right away. now i can’t just be MYSELF which isn’t perfect but let’s say im friendly personable awesome and sweet…no…i get rejected for ANY given reason, while men run to thieves, liars, women who aren’t as attractive, demanding bossy arrogant women…i don’t get it? men seem to ENJOY the psycho women and bad women and just reject us NICE women then whine that women do the same to nice guys–not true. men treat nice women like dirt and if you are BEAUTIFUL and nice thats an open invitation for them to ABUSE and use you..
days ago i went on an internet date with a stranger– yes u can NEVER know what to expect, but he saw my picture–we had plans for dinner and a movie. most of the times thes days i already know…if i want to do a movie…i have to do the movie FIRST because after dinner there will RARELY be a movie. why? oh well…im a personable kind date—the guy sits there half the time…intimidatingly just STARING at me quiet..looking at me as if im evil just for being beautiful…while i have to TALK and talk..and ask the questions and do the talking..and be funny, friendly, tell funny stories…jokes…while the jerk just SITS back and STARES at me intimidatingly. then, when my appetizer came out..he seemed IRKED i was eating my soup..as if…how dare you use me beautiful woman for soup? thats how he was looking at me…its as if im draining his entire bank account by eating that soup…whereas in most cases…these same men will GIVE MONEY TO WOMEN but can’t take ME out on a simple date for food….eating that soup was like..me just being out of line. i felt awkward, embarrassed and the minute i was ENJOYING it…as if he knew he just began STARING at me and giving off this terrible energy…to make sure i didnt enjoy it…rude weird…then, once we left.. i KNWE just by his behavior..he’d say “well it was nice but im gonna have to pass on a movie because of (some erroneous excuse)” however..he didnt say that…he said…outside…ok so i’ll meet you at the theater? i said Ok?? i was shocked…b/c based on experience and intuition i was CERTAIN he would cancel….as i was driving to the theater…then, this jerk texted me saying “jenn, im sorry but im heading home..just don’t feel any chemistry there”…again HUH?? i mean…once again…just REJECTED…for NO reason…after I had to PUT out…be talkative nice kind funny entertaining to this CREEP…while he sat there treating me like crap….then in the end just REJECTING me…for no reason…and cancelling on a date. i texted him saying..but what? it’s platonic and huh??? of course i KNWE it coming it just came a few minutes after i thought…but seriously…why?? you dont understand…other women can sit there…be themselves…not say many words..the man will be asking them questions, be kind polite courteous. but if you are beautiful…oh boy..BEWARE..you will be LOOKED at as an object, disrespected…stared at rudely…intimidatingly…mistreated then in the end REJECTED after enduring this bad treatment…this is the DATING world for some of us….just MISTREATMENT nothing else. they won’t talk to you, treat you like a person…literally they’ll just smirk to themselves, treat you oddly, stare at you and give off terrible energy..treat you like an object. many times they are so intimidated by your beauty…they just SIT there and STARE as if they want to RUN off…most of the time i HAVE to sit there and KEEP them there…entertain them..be funny..ask questions…i can tell esp when they are TERRIFIED of your beauty….they sit there shocked, not knowing how to react…or staring at you as if..something is wrong with you…its terrible and not fair…but this is the dating world for some of us…..
May 15, 2013 at 2:16 AM
Thanks for both responses… I think this is a fascinating subject, and I’m sure there is something that beautiful women can do to find the right guy. While something I have learned over the years is that women want empathy over solutions, I will still try to provide a solution and see if this resonates with anyone.
I think that the solution is not really finding a man that has his own philosophical self worked out, because as ItzMzBunny mentioned, these men are one-in-a-million. You probably have a greater chance of winning the lottery.
The key, I think, is in the beautiful woman bypassing all the obstacles and social conditioning of those men that would be able to sweep average-looking women off their feet. Effectively, it is about the woman becoming the “player” if you will.
For example, lets take the writer ItzMzBunny referred to. This is a man who would spend hours showing you his work… It’s a no-brainer that he liked you. And, yet, something was stopping him from actually going out with you, even to the point of outright rejecting you.
It’s crazy, but there is something in the man’s head that is causing this, and I think the objective of the beautiful woman should be to try and bypass that something. At the end of the day, it all comes down to limiting beliefs.
Say that the man has been conditioned all of his life to believe that beautiful women should only be accessible to elite football players and billionaires. We know for a fact that this is the case, and this conditioning has gotten to the extreme in a society of constant propaganda and objectification of women.
What would happen is that if a beautiful woman makes the move, the belief kicks in, and absolute mental acrobatics will go on in his head to lead him to believe that something isn’t quite right, so he rejects it. This is very similar to a fundamentalist of any religion (just an example, not judging anyone) being presented with proof that God doesn’t exist. He would find any way too rationalize the invalidity of that “proof”.
Social tests have been done on this. While men fantasize about women just falling into their hands, sociologists sent women out into the streets to ask men out on dates, or ask for their numbers, even after short conversations… Practically 100% of men refused, not because they didn’t like the girl, but because it just didn’t fit their mindset that a beautiful girl liked them. They would rationalize thinking there is something wierd here, I think I better get out fast.
If a man doesn’t have these beliefs, he’s probably a player so keep that in mind.
So, following on that, it’s fairly obvious this is your main obstacle. How to overcome it is the difficult part. You would have to make the man truly believe that you like him and that you are romantically interested without setting off any of the beliefs. I think that with some men, just verbalizing this in a normal conversation and empathizing with the man’s social conditioning could work, but with others it wouldn’t.
It all comes down to comfort. If a man “rejects” you in the way this author did, keep in mind that he is not really rejecting you, he is holding on to his belief that beautiful women would never want to date him. So if he “rejects” you, it is not over. It is your job to make him understand that you are attainable.
Not through obvious flirtation (like touching him sexually, non-obvious is smiles and whatnot), because this would bring up his alarm quickly, but through deep-connection. Those conversations you think about for days because of how good they make you feel.
Essentially, you have to be friends with the guy until it is not really a big deal that you are a beautiful girl, and he appreciates you as a person. At that point, romantic escalation, even after a rejection or two, would be far easier, as long as you make him understand that you can be achieved.
Of course, the only way for this to happen is comfort, and comfort can only be achieved through equality. Men are very rational, and have step-to-step thinking, so verbalizing things will make everything smoother. For example, if he is putting you on a pedestal, tell him this, and tell him that you don’t like it and you would rather he treat you like a human being. He will get the message. Do the same with any other behaviour that would come from “beauty-fear”… Freezing, eye contact, nervousness, the fear that you will run off with some other man… Just guide him through your own feelings verbally, make him comfortable, and there will come a point where a relationship will be possible, and it will be his turn to sweep you off your feet.
I’ve spoken to many men about beauty-fear, and I have experienced it myself. I have rejected women in the past for this reason, which I am repentful of.
I hope this will help someone.
May 15, 2013 at 2:28 AM
Also, I forgot to say this in my previous post. Maybe it takes a few rejections before you get to the man of your dreams. I would try three times with a guy before moving on, always after building that comfort I talked about and letting him know you are attainable.
But even so, you should immunize yourself to rejection, if it really is rejection (just after three attempts). Sometimes a person’s situation just doesn’t allow them to be in a particular situation.
Imagine if you went into a room, and you were looking for some stuff, and there were 20 men in that room, and one of them had it. How would you find the stuff? You would go up to every man and ask if he has the stuff. 19 men would say no… Are they rejecting you? Of course not, they just don’t have what you’re looking for. Once you find the guy with the stuff, then you have what you wanted.
BUT, you will never find the stuff unless you talk to the men. Maybe you are lucky and the first guy has the stuff, or maybe you are unlucky and the 20th guy you talk to has it.
That’s just life.
May 15, 2013 at 4:34 PM
Wise advice, Steve. Your explanation of why men reject beautiful women rings true. Establishing a deep connection and friendship is indeed the most solid foundation on which to build a relationship.
May 15, 2013 at 8:06 PM
What Steve said makes a lot of sense. I’ve experienced it, in fact. I once had a man who was VERY interested in me tell me straight up that he didn’t think that he’d ever be able to have me and this was after I told him that I was interested! I liked him a lot and told him so but my words fell on deaf ears. I think he thought that I was out of his league. He clearly had some self-confidence issues. He finally told me in a very strange stilted email that he wasn’t interested in me and didn’t want me to bother him anymore. That one really broke my heart.
May 16, 2013 at 6:38 AM
Yes, his reaction is entirely consistent with what Steve explained. It’s a shame he didn’t have the courage to transcend his fears and conditioning. WIth all the problems and heartache that you and other women have described here, Elizabeth, isn’t it ironic that unattractive women dream about being beautiful, as if that would solve all their problems?
May 22, 2013 at 3:12 AM
Yup, this is my life. I’m in my early 30s and I have no marriage prospects, no real girlfriends, and a handful of resentful female family members. One of many examples:
About four years ago I began dating a guy. It didn’t last more than a month because while at my cousin’s house, she went through my phone and stole his phone number (while I was in the bathroom). She ended up inviting him to her house for sex that weekend. She immediately called me the next day and confessed to it all. When I asked her how could she do that to me, her reply was, “I wanted to prove that I could get any man you could.”
Being attractive has been an absolute curse for me. Not only do I have to deal with everything the article describes, I also have to deal with negative cultural stereotypes. Being a woman of Latin descent, I am constantly subjected to the following rubbish: “the hot blooded Latina”, “the exotic experiment”, and/or “the unknowingly mistress on the side”. The men I’ve encountered never cared that I am family oriented, caring, highly educated, or otherwise.
In fact, I went out a month ago with a girlfriend. It was the first time I’ve gone out in almost two years. We walked into a bar and within the first five minutes of being there, a guy walked up to me and smiled. For a split second I smiled back before he grabbed me by the hair, pulled my head back and tried to forcefully make out with me. I threw my drink on him and he walked away cheering. No one came to help me. Other male bystanders laughed at the “show,” and the women stared at me with either pity or envy (how crazy is that!) Out of sheer embarrassment, I forced my friend to leave with me. However, she got upset with me for “ruining the night” — and started complaining about how I don’t appreciate that men consider me hot. According to her logic, I was suppose to revel in the fact that some stranger assaulted me. I haven’t gone out again since.
Men lie about being single, lie about their age, and judge women based off of characteristics they don’t have themselves most times. The last time I had a dated someone long-term (five years ago), I broke it off because he wanted me to lose weight. He constantly called me “pudgy” and put the guilt trip on me whenever I ate food in his presence. Meanwhile I weighed 120 pounds and wore a size 3. Ridiculous!
I don’t have an issue approaching men. However, I have stopped approaching them. I have approached many men, however, I find that none of those men ever respected me. My male platonic friends explained that “most” men don’t respect or value women who approach them because there is no chase. Men value people they have to put work/effort into. People and things that come too easily often get discarded for other things and people that require energy because once obtained it is viewed as a reward. I’m not sure if this is 100% true, but this is what I have been told by the men I trust in my life. In a way, it kind of fits in with the whole “hunter” persona. For those who aren’t hunters, the nice guys — they sit there dumbfounded thinking “what’s the catch?”
Honestly, I can deal with an oblivious man who will eventually get that I’m into him. But I can’t ever deal with a man who will never accept that someone like me is interested in someone like him. In the latter, that type of man is emotionally damaged and nothing I say will ever change his mind. He’ll always believe that I have one foot outside the door, looking for someone “better.” Its a sad, sad situation.
Living in NYC doesn’t help either. I am convinced that many nice guys may have approached me at one point or another. But living in such a large city where an attractive woman gets hit on 20-30 times a day, its very easy to ignore everyone and walk around like a zombie just to protect yourself (emotionally and physically). Men follow me, call me names if I don’t accept their advances, cat call, try to physically grab me if I don’t respond — oh and I can’t forget to mention the pervs who try to rub up on you on the crowded subway.
Living life being treated like a “thing” instead of a “person” is truly a nightmare. I am trying to work on changing my perspectives because I’ve gotten to a point where not only do I distrust men, I actually fear them because of their overly aggressive advances and misplaced sense of entitlement to a woman’s attention, affection, and body. I am trying to change my view because recently I have decided that this life cannot be “it” for me. There has to be someone out there who can accept and love me for who I am holistically.
May 22, 2013 at 6:47 AM
Beautifully articulated, Lonely Life. I cringe when i read of such insensitive treatment from jerks who call themselves men. Your stories as well as the horror stories from other women confirm that most men are operating out of a lower consciousness. The women you describe are just as immature and self-absorbed. The challenge is where to find men who live at a higher consciousness. Both men and women who have raised their consciousness tend to congregate together. So the key is to come in contact with people who are kind, compassionate respectful and perhaps spiritually aware (not a prerequisite but it may be a good sign). From your comment, it’s clear that you are operating at a higher level than the people you associate with. Why is that? Do you not know any compassionate, self-aware people? You can’t be the only one in New York City. Do what you can to seek them out.
One idea: the spiritual organization I belong to is filled with good, decent men and women who would never resort to the type of behavior you and other women speak of. It’s certainly not a cure-all though. Just because a man says he is living a spiritual life doesn’t mean he’s still not a jerk. I just contend that it improves the odds in your favor. I’ll even get specific here. Since you live in New York City, check out the Self-Realization Fellowship group there (contact@newyorkcitycenter.org). Even if you don’t find an eligible man, at least you will meet people who are mature and kind. Again, there’s no guarantee that everyone in the group will be like that, but my experience has been that many, if not most, will be. I know a few people from that group and they’re exceptional people.
I certainly hope you can connect with people who will value you and whom you will value, Lonely Life. My heart goes out to you.
May 23, 2013 at 3:12 PM
“Honestly, I can deal with an oblivious man who will eventually get that I’m into him. But I can’t ever deal with a man who will never accept that someone like me is interested in someone like him. In the latter, that type of man is emotionally damaged and nothing I say will ever change his mind. He’ll always believe that I have one foot outside the door, looking for someone “better.” Its a sad, sad situation.”
This is one that I can greatly empathize with. My current girlfriend is a stunner, and at the beginning of the relationship she told me this was the main problem she had with men. I’ve dated beautiful women before, and I would always find myself not trusting them… I always saw the girl as having “one foot outside the door” as you said.
I guess I had to learn this the hard way and through experience, and I also suppose this is something most men never learn, but at the end of the day relationship dynamics work the same with a beautiful woman as they do with a more average-looking girl. Men don’t see themselves as “high-value” enough, but really, a high-value man is any man that is capable of connecting with her, a man who makes the good feelings rush through.
We as men should stop distrusting women. If a relationship dissolves, it is not because the woman was too beautiful and waiting for something better, it is simply because it was not meant to be. An average woman can leave at any moment aswell… At the end of the day it is her circumstances, not her beauty. Enjoy things while they last I suppose.
May 23, 2013 at 3:20 PM
True, Steve. If you’re worried that your girlfriend has one foot out the door, your fear becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
May 23, 2013 at 4:02 PM
Brilliant quote Phil… I see that most relationship problems, with beautiful women and not, come down to artificial behaviours, not knowing how to treat people naturally.
People will put on a fake face at the beginning and when the real person comes out of the closet, most times several years into marriage, everything dissolves.
With beautiful women it’s similar. In this ridiculous society, she is the nice-looking accessory, the arm-candy, to be bragged about like a Ferrari. This view of women clearly translates into how they are treated by most men. Not as human beings, but as something that would look nice on the arm. It’s that inability to look her in the eyes and have a human interaction with her.
Believe it or not, I have met beautiful women that told me they had never connected with anyone, and by connection I mean that fuzzy feeling of trust and natural comfort towards someone.
I guess you cannot blame them for having their defenses up. They need to in order not to be damaged… I’m an ugly dude, so I don’t have first-hand experience, but I definitely think their situation is a fairly sad one worth empathizing with.
May 23, 2013 at 4:08 PM
I do believe that it’s more difficult for beautiful women to connect with others, Steve. Not through any fault of their own, but because men either objectify them or are intimidated by them and other women either don’t trust them or are jealous of them.
It’s ironic, isn’t it, that so many unattractive women yearn to be beautiful. Kind of like people wishing they were rich only to find out that having tons of money brings with it all sorts of problems they never anticipated.
May 27, 2013 at 11:05 PM
Yes I can relate to this but what’s worse is that my personality is more typical of a plain looking woman. So I feel my outer appearance and personality don’t ‘match’ if that makes sense. I didn’t become really attractive until in my 20’s but was awkward as a teenager. Also, I have a more shy/artsy/introverted personality. But because of my outer appearance, I only get approached by loud, party-type jocks and guys after flings. Or the kind of guys that have nothing to lose so they approach any women they see! Also I’m sure others assume I’m stuck up. And for awhile the only interaction I had with men was getting yelled and whistled at on the street!!
Sad really. I really think that if my personality matched my looks things would be easier.. I think no matter how hot you are, if you have a bubbly and outgoing personality, it would help.
Also..I suppose a beautiful woman can always make themselves appear ‘homely’. Wear no makeup, tie their hair back, put on a pair of glasses, cover their body in a matronly outfit. In a way, beautiful women complain about not getting approached, but they wear a tight skirt and put a lot of effort into looking perfect when it’s actually counter-active.
I should actually try this as an experiment sometime and see if I suddenly get approached more by ‘normal’ types but somehow I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s so much how beautiful you are as having a very confident, bubbly, positive and outgoing personality!
In my case, I can be serious/shy/bookish and with my looks, that is immediately viewed as stuck up and snobby!
May 29, 2013 at 12:57 PM
Then again, Melanie, if you had a different personality, you would ultimately attract a different kind of guy. No matter what kind of personality someone has, when they accept themselves and embrace who they authentically are, that’s when they become more attractive to the kind of person they’d like to end up with. Authenticity is perhaps a stronger attractor than looks or personality.
You’re right about glamming up being potentially counterproductive. As I wrote in the post: “A woman turns to makeup and fashion to boost her self-esteem and make herself more desirable to men. Yet ironically, the more beautiful she makes herself, the better her chances of attracting the wrong type of guy.”
Your comment about beautiful women making themselves less attractive brought to mind a friend of mine. She worked out regularly, had a great body and long blonde hair. She started getting so many catcalls from men that she got fed up, cut her hair, stopped working out and deliberately gained twenty-five pounds. She ended up marrying a good guy and having two children with him. That’s probably not a path I would recommend but it certainly is an interesting choice!
June 17, 2013 at 7:06 AM
How does that explain me. I am a beautiful woman, shapely educated and the only men who ever ask me out are Geeks or ”nice guys”.
I am glamourous not over the top, I wear respectable length dresses and skirts and I am confident. I believe I have been approached by one ”type A” guy my whole life! All the others want to be in relationships with me.
June 17, 2013 at 7:09 AM
It certainly sounds like you are an exception to the rule, jw. Without knowing you, what you look like and how you present yourself to the world, I don’t have an answer for you. DO you see your experiences with men as a good thing?
June 21, 2013 at 3:16 PM
Finally, I think I understand why my love life has been a shambles. I’ve had awful relationships and I ask myself, WHY? I blame myself for going wrong but friends and family say that I pick the wrong ones. I’m shy so I tend to wait for guys to approach me. Anyway, these guys tend to be assho**s and I get hurt, time and time again. In the past, many times, I have felt used as a piece of meat. It’s actually got to a point where I dress down because I am scared of showing myself off. The only problem is that I still don’t get approached by nice guys. I have tried to approach nice guys and they don’t seem to be very chatty and it’s harder. I just want to be myself. I want to look the best that I can, wear clothes that I like and chat to people that I like but it’s hard because I attract the wrong attention. I remember going to a work’s xmas party and a work colleague demanded that I should sleep with him to get promoted, I told him where to go and he made work very difficult for me afterwards. At the same time, another work colleague who I really liked, who had a great personality didn’t want to know me because I was developing a reputation, even though I wasn’t sleeping around. It was so frustrating. I actually feel like I hate the majority of men because I have experienced so much pain from them. I know that there is a nice minority but it’s like they don’t really see me and what’s in my heart.
June 21, 2013 at 3:57 PM
Your pain and frustration are palpable, sunny56. I’m sorry that you’ve had so many bad experiences with the kind of men who give men a bad name. There have been some suggestions made in earlier comments about how to potentially break out of this cycle. I hope you find them helpful or at least encouraging. I wish you luck.
June 28, 2013 at 11:32 AM
I’m surprised nobody brought this up but if you’re exceptionally attractive and you’re one of those really “nice” people that smiles at everyone, pays a lot of attention to everyone when they’re talking to people etc… that is viewed as a very negative thing to most guys. Why? Because if you’re exceptionally attractive guys don’t want their girlfriend or wife being “friendly” to other men whether it be their friends, coworkers, etc. While it’s probably entirely fact that the woman has no intention on ever flirting with anyone in any way, the man attached to her does not want the man she is conversing with to THINK that she may be giving them some language of interest. Remember, to egomaniacal guys, friendliness and attention giving in many situations can be misconstrued in their whacked out heads that the woman may like them. Yes, even a slightly extended 10 min general conversation at a party could be enough to trigger the “this girl wants me” switch in their heads and that is extremely disrespectful to the man she is really with. I personally prefer a stronger woman that acknowledges all men with some discomfort and restraint. A little bit#@ attitude is attractive to me as it makes me feel more secure and comfortable in a relationship with an attractive woman… and I feel much more respected. I’m one of those nice guys that happens to be extremely shy because I suffer from SAD. I also happen to be one of those really tall good looking guys (hey I can be conceited here as I’m anonymous!). I have never been able to approach a woman in my entire life (I’m in my 30s) not because I have too much pride but because of my disorder. It’s very debilitating. To address some of the comments from some women here, yes, it is very true that if an attractive woman approaches me I have significant restraint because I assume that she approaches ALL good looking men… and knowing that makes her immediately less attractive. My only advice is if you know the guy you are approaching is pushing back and he is indeed single, keep pushing. I’ve passed on some good ones back in the day and I regret not accepting them; they weren’t persistent enough. I know a ton of guys and I can tell you with absolute certainty that the most faithful men out there are the shyest men. When you find one you like do NOT be aggressive with them but be persistent. There is a very good chance the guy likes you but you would never know because of his strange and standoffish demeanor. It takes a lot of work to land a truly faithful man.
June 28, 2013 at 6:08 PM
You have an interesting perspective, John. However, I strongly disagree with your statement that strong women acknowledge all men with some discomfort and restraint. An emotionally healthy and confident woman should be (must be!) free to express herself and who she is without worrying about adjusting her behavior and very being to accommodate men who are self-absorbed, insensitive, insecure or all of the above.
While I agree that persistence with shy men can pay off, I’m thinking that women want more from a man than just faithfulness. More than one woman on this post has expressed the wish that nice guys would “man up.” I interpret that to mean that shy, timid guys need to gain a little courage and backbone.
Finally, I respectfully disagree with your last statement that “it takes a lot of work to land a truly faithful man.” Not only does that put the onus on the woman to be the aggressor, it lets the man off the hook for stepping up and, well, acting like the type of man that women want.
June 29, 2013 at 12:13 AM
Well I’ve been following the comments on here since I came across this article. It’s nice to know I’m not the only female with the problem. But also everyone’s situation has been different.
To Phil I have to say that your reply to John about disagreeing about his last part when it comes to a woman putting in more “effort” to snag a guy. I agree with you totally. No a woman shouldn’t have to do all the work. However I can’t help but agree and accept John’s answer to it because its true.
I don’t know your age and since John said he’s in his 30s he’s not that much older than me (I’m 26) and it seems a lot of men expect a woman to do the work and basically bust her ass, take her clothes and do his job as a man (like mowing the lawn, fixing the car, even tending to the house when it needs fixing). Which for me, personally, I have a problem with. Don’t tell me to go to the kitchen and run around the house and squeak like a woman, the whole while telling me to do what he refuses to do so he can have a bromance with his friends or scratch his nuts on the couch.
But it made me think of this guy from high school. When I first met him he said he liked me and broke up with his then girlfriend saying I was the reason which started an unnecessary fight. Well he never asked me out, no dates, no nothing. But he didn’t want me talking to any other guys. Couldn’t sit by them at lunch or sit with no one at the ball games but him. It was crazy. So one day I got tired and asked him when we would start dating. Even though I was a lot more shy, when I mustered up the courage I would speak how I felt. Well the guy told me he would ask me when he got ready. I asked him when was that going to be? He said whenever it happens I’ll say yes either way. I’ll be honest I got pissed because not only was he telling me I was good enough, I had to wait and I wasn’t allowed to talk or having any interactions with other guys all at the same time but he was also calling me desperate. I wasn’t be desperate. He was flocking to all the other girls but holding me back and I couldn’t have that. I wouldn’t stand for it. I stopped talking to him and he eventually dropped out.
But here’s one for everyone.
The other night I went out for ice cream. This guy approaches me and said he wanted to ask me a question. It started off about is it wrong for him to say something to someone who’s a drinker or smokes something to that effect. Before I could answer he asked me if he could borrow a dollar to catch the bus. The bus costs $3. He said the $1 would definitely get him home and how he could pay me back on Friday (this was Thursday) that’s if I lived in he neighbor where the store was located. I told him no I couldn’t give him money and that I didn’t live on that side of town. Then he asked to borrow my phone number and I said no. He told me I was pretty and asked if I had a boyfriend. I said thank you and told him no I was single. He asked to borrow my number to say hi sometimes. I told him no. Then he disappeared off somewhere.
I always get the strange guys that never approach me like they’re interested. They either want money, free sex or expect me to treat them. Like what John, I had one guy say to me that if I wanted to go to a family restaurant, I had to take him to fancy ones and pay for the date this would be 10 dates before he considers it. It’s like the roles have reversed and women have to ask the men out, pay for the date and relinquish sex with no ifs, ands, or buts. Sad but that’s just how things work nowadays.
June 29, 2013 at 3:47 AM
ItzMzBunny, you’re right that if John feels the way he does, that means that a lot of men probably feel the same way, so it’s good to be aware of his perspective. Still, I would hope that both women and men recognize when a relationship is unhealthy, and cut their losses earlier rather than later.
Your situation with the guy who wanted to control you is very upsetting. He sounds like the kind of guy who thinks, “If I can’t have her, nobody can.” Those types are dangerous and my heart aches for the women who fall into their clutches.
Your comments always leave me scratching my head—not because of your perspective but because of all the screwy men you come in contact with. Your reality is obviously filled with emotionally stilted and dysfunctional men, so you have to learn how to deal with that. And obviously, I don’t need to deal with that side of men because I’m not a woman, so my perspective is limited.
That said, I can’t go along with your last comment about “that’s just how things work nowadays.” That may be the case in your environment, but in the wider culture, I think you’d have better luck finding a man who is worthy of your attention.
June 29, 2013 at 12:38 PM
Definitely I do think men and women should know when a relationship isn’t working. However I know plenty of people who know it isn’t working but continue to stay. It baffles me.
Well as for that guy, I doubt he was interested in me in the first place. I think all he was interested was adding another notch on his belt.
I will say yes the men are pretty messed up. I attract the worst kind. When I come across a nice guy he is immediately disinterested (I don’t know if the same way as John is) or ignores me or says no right off the back. I met a nice guy that I thought would be a great fit. But because I live in what he considers “a bad neighborhood” he said he would never come visit me and expects me to move. He says he’s interested but hasn’t really made a move. But I’ll be honest and say I lost interest because he said he didn’t like where I lived. That’s the type of excuses I get unfortunately.
I’m not saying this is the case for everybody. But I can tell by the way you talk you’re definitely not in your 20s and its a big if for 30s. But gone are the days where anybody can approach someone not based on looks but personality and they would court/date. To be told you’re pretty only in hopes of him getting sex, money or something he wants is ridiculous. But the women make it just as bad slinging their legs open like an automatic door every time a man walks past.
However you must understand we have a limited number of years in our lives. We can’t visit every city, state or country to find a perfect fit. It not so easy, not so possible and in my case like many others its financially impossible. But it’s not my environment, just where I live. The men expects women to do her job as a woman, do his too and when it comes to sex they still want her to do all the work.
I met a guy a few months ago who I thought I had a lot in common and even thought it could work. But he automatically treated me as a friendzone candidate and then even acted like I was annoying. When I wasn’t, I assumed we were having a general conversation.
So for some of us, we either accept what’s available like the stilted and dysfunctional men or you live your life as a cat lady. Sad but true. I’m not saying a man has to throw a commitment in your face, but just say hello and spark a conversation. But they ask for money or sex in a minute with no hopes or promise of a possible relationship. That’s what I think is unfair the most. Even the married men are worst. One said I led him on and gave the impression I was going to have sex with him. I never did, and when he mentioned he was married to say “we” wouldn’t have a relationship, I told him I wasn’t interested. But yet he was damned and determined to make me do what he wanted. That goes with a lot of men. I understand you know nothing of the topic, but I have to say you don’t know me very well. Because its not just men in “my environment” have men from other states, even countries all asking for sex. But how can someone be good enough for sex and nothing more?? Why even go for sex when there’s no chemistry, mutual attraction?? It’s just a boring exercise with someone who may call up for a follow up several months later or not at all.
The men of today aren’t gentlemen nor do they possess the chivalry like the men before them did. They’re selfish and focused only on them. A woman doesn’t deserve respect, to be treated like a lady and because of this many women will do whatever just to say they have a man.
It’s truly sad, really.
June 29, 2013 at 1:51 PM
If that’s the reality of the dating landscape today, ItzMzBunny, then yes, it is truly sad. You know far more about this than I do. I’m in my fifties and never had to deal with this aspect of men. In spite of all you have to deal with and put up with, I wish you luck in finding what you want.
June 29, 2013 at 3:02 PM
I could tell you were older by the way you talk. You sound like my mom no offense lol. She’s in her 60s.
That unfortunely is the dating landscape. I assumed that dating would be the way my parents always raved about it. But it never was. I couldn’t explain it to them because well things were different. Going out for ice cream was a good date. Now it’s not, a girl is lucky if she doesn’t have to pick the guy up, pay for the ice cream & give up sex to “compensate” him for his time.
Some men aren’t interested in being friends first unless its with “benefits” and if not he has no interest. They seem to be interested in marrying the easy girl who’s had sex with the whole community while dogging out good girls like me and the other ladies on here. I’m shocked and disappointed that the dating game turned out this way. I’ve tried all angles and still receive the same outcome: rejection.
Now I dunno about other places but here in Pittsburgh you get bashed for being single. I’ve been looking for a job for years but all they want are married women or women with kids. But if a man is disinterested in both or feel “you’re not good enough” it makes it hard. I’m frustrated, and disgusted that just to be recognized as a human I have to be a wife or a mother when that’s not possible without men. But then men are selective as to who they marry and impregnate. I’m not saying that’s bad, but you know if someone’s off their rocker! You leave that goofball the hell alone. But they seem to like that. Plus where I live there’s a lot more Caucasian people than anything but those guys interested in dating outside their race aren’t looking for something long term. Even though my parents were both different races, for me it’s uncomfortable because they do it in such a negative way.
There’s a lot of problems that weren’t present a good 30-40 years ago and now dating is like damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I never thought someone wouldn’t like me because of where I live, or because I had my own hair or because I blossomed later than the other girls. I didn’t think that men would have the audacity to say all “good girls” are good for is sex and nothing more. It’s messed up!
Soon we’re going to be the cause of our own extinction.
June 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM
ItzMzBunny, my knowledge of the dating scene for twentysomethings in Pittsburgh is zero. From your description, it sounds like another planet.
June 29, 2013 at 4:10 PM
Oh feels like it’s another planet. I’m sure Mars has better picks than this place does. That’s my personal opinion. I refuse to give out free sex without knowing it’s going to be more thank just a 5-minute fun time for him.
It’s best to stay single to prevent the hurt and heartache. However it’s just as bad because single people get kicked in their ass.
Heck even the singles groups and events are only meant for the 30-35 and older crowd and plus you have to pay a membership!! Pittsburgh is terrible as far as dating goes. Most people just pick someone and try to make it work whether they’re compatible or not.
June 29, 2013 at 9:06 PM
This was an amazing and nearly mind-blowing article for me. As sad as it may seem, as a 22-year old young man I hadn’t really considered how empty and gilded the world truly is for many very beautiful women. Throughout my life I’ve almost always subconsciously assumed every time I encountered one that she was already taken, or that she simply had better things to do than hear me out in my attempt to court her. I know a few girls from high school who have already become models, and I had already eliminated them from contention in romance — assuming there was no viable way I could get them to listen to me. Thank you for writing such an article as this — it has enlightened me somewhat, and hopefully it can help me to change my ways and ask out more attractive girls. I’ll also admit that since the two girls I asked out during college ended up being taken at the time, I’d come to the hasty conclusion that most beautiful women are unavailable. But it simply isn’t true, so I’m going to follow your advice and “man up”. Frankly I didn’t realize nice guys like me were so needed in this world, and of all things, by the most attractive contingent of women out there.
June 30, 2013 at 5:28 AM
I’m so glad this post raised your consciousness at such a young age, Phil. May you go out into the world with confidence and character and be a shining light as a man who “gets it.” Be sure to also read my post on what women want form men: https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/cherish/
I’d also like to emphasize an important point from the article that I wish I had known at your age: “Chances are that a guy who’s intimidated by a woman’s beauty would put that woman on a pedestal if by some chance they did start dating. Excessive doting might sound like a problem many women would be willing to endure but life on a pedestal can get old very quickly. A mature woman wants a partner who treats her as an equal; she will settle for nothing less than being authentically loved, not mindlessly worshipped. In short, a woman cures a man’s addiction to doting by acting as the anti-dote.”
May you create a wonderful relationship that brings both of you joy and fulfillment!
June 30, 2013 at 4:29 PM
In response to Itzmybunny, I’d like, if I may, to give some insight from a male perspective. I’d say the male ego is huge, and especially in today’s urban world of relative social isolation, for a man, even speaking to a woman society considers high-value in any way is a high-risk sport.
It’s all in the genes. Back in the primitive days, the more attractive a woman was, the stronger the man she would be with. Approaching a high-value woman generally meant getting your head smashed in with a rock. But, mind you, not all is lost. Men are more logical than emotional, yet they still have emotional. The only problem is that they have to suppress emotion logically, and that is not the easiest thing in the world to do.
When I approach an attractive woman with romantic intent, I have a burning sensation all throughout my body, as if I were about to walk into a room full of psychopathic Russian mafia gangsters, but I have to logically remind myself: “Don’t worry, it doesn’t mean anything. Feel your fear and do it anyway.”
This means one of two things. When a man does bring up the courage to approach, he can either be a nervous wreck, excusing himself halfway through the interaction because of the discomfort, speaking in mispronounced senseless phrases, or he can take the more “gamey” approach.
By “gamey” I don’t mean blindly looking for sex in the way you describe. I’m not talking about a man who spurts “You’re hot” to everything that moves. (This last man is generally in the nervous category, his mind is either too crowded or too drunk to think authentically, and all he can come up with is “you’re hot”.) When I say “gamey” I’m referring to fairly open-minded men who are willing to wander outside their comfort zone (approaching beautiful women), but don’t know how to.
What these men will do is go on the Internet and take advice from self-proclaimed male dating coaches that know less about women than they do. In doing so they create this bubble of artificiality that either transmits the wrong message (he’s a douchebag, he only wants sex…) or make the words “creepy” or “wierd” cross the girl’s mind. These words are just female terms for “something is not quite right with this situation”, hence artificiality.
What works with women is genuine, authentic and unfiltered natural conversation. But, very unfortunately for women, men are not capable of naturally communicating with attractive women unless they have gone through a process of desensitizing theirselves. An example could be a man who grew up around very attractive women, or one who has made a conscious effort to transcend his comfort zone and speak to these women regularly over a period of many years. Both types of men are incredibly rare and I wouldn’t rely on spontaneously running into one of them.
Since men cannot be natural with these women, at least not before desensitizing themselves fully, they recur to precanned lines, routines and artificial tecniques that, in their minds, are suppose to create attraction, while all they do is put forward, in female terms, “creepiness”.
Let me try to illustrate what the man was thinking in the ice cream interaction you provided. When he said “is it wrong to speak to someone who’s a drinker”, it was a qualifier. The proclaimed objective would be to bring the beautiful woman down from her conceived pedestal. The woman just takes it as an insult. When he asked for a dollar, he didn’t want a dollar, he wanted to secure a way of seeing you again by ensuring you stop by to pick up your money. And, yet again, the woman takes it as begging for money. When he said he wanted to borrow your phone number, he used the word “borrow” as a way of trying not to seem desperate (desperacy and neediness, and the male/female desire to prevent it from being percieved in them, are the biggest artificialities there are in today’s dating scene). The woman takes it as an immaturity. After you rejected the proposal, he got nervous, his plan degenerated and he came out with “you’re pretty”. After again rejecting his nervous proposal, things got awkard and he ejected to get away from the massive discomfort.
I think that interaction is a brillaint example of artificiality killing communication. The man thought he was doing one thing, while the woman’s thoughts were vibrating at an entirely different wavelength. It’s that male-to-female incongruency that prevents most interactions from going anywhere.
One of two: Either the man tunes in to the woman’s wavelength, or viceversa. The problem is neither of these are likely to happen.
June 30, 2013 at 6:43 PM
Well stated, Steve. It’s especially true that “What works with women is genuine, authentic and unfiltered natural conversation.” You then added, “But, very unfortunately for women, men are not capable of naturally communicating with attractive women unless they have gone through a process of desensitizing theirselves.” True, but I would take it further and say that many men are not skilled at genuine, authentic and unfiltered natural conversation . . . period. Unless it’s about sports or finance or business or hobbies. Women crave men who are compassionate, self-aware and emotionally available. Such men are rare until at least age thirty-five or forty. After that, well, they’re still plenty rare, it’s just that a smattering of them have started getting a clue. That’s why I wrote the post, “What Do Women Want? Here’s the Answer, Guys!” (https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/cherish/) Hopefully, it will serve as a wake-up call to men that becoming a better human being is the pathway to success with women.
June 30, 2013 at 9:03 PM
I agree with what both you and Phil said.
I will say well yes he might be nervous and might’ve had an issue talking to a woman. I understand. However he approached me asking a question which led straight him wanting a dollar and how he would only pay me back IF I lived in the neighborhood I was visiting.
Unfortunately because you don’t know but I mentioned month before I was being “open” and took a ride from a nice guy whom I offered to pay. He willing accepted in the beginning. However when I thought $10 would be nice, he thought raping me would be better than the money. Luckily he wasn’t successful, and I fought back. So sometimes you can’t be too trusting. As for that guy, I couldn’t give money to someone I didn’t know and wasn’t giving me a concrete payback.
I will disagree with Phil and say I don’t need the lovey dovey conversation. If he wants to talk football I’m all in, I personally think the Super Bowl was fix and if the 49ners would’ve went for a safety, a touchdown and field goal they totally would’ve had the Ravens by the ass. But that’s my personal opinion and I’m not a Ravens Fan. I rather talk sports than discuss my favorite part in the Notebook was. I hate movies like that honestly.
I don’t know about other women, but I rather have a guy approach me saying Hello and even comment the weather or tell me his name or even try a joke than to approach me and ask for money or demand sex.
I’ve gone up to nice guys and tried to get them to talk to me, and they immediately write me off or go all grumpy cat on me and say NO. Some even call me high maintenance which I’m offended by. I don’t put make up on to go to the grocery store and I’ve never owned a purse dog. I rather go in my pjs and grab what I need than to strut around like the other women I see (who give me disgusted looks) with their formal attire and heels. It doesn’t mean I don’t know how to dress up and put make up on. I just refuse to wear a Halloween mask of someone I’m not to impress someone who won’t be into me, but a second (or another for some) personality.
Everyone is shy and I understand that. However men shouldn’t approach women and be demanding sex without offering anything else.
But the nice guys can’t sit in the corner and pout about it either. BELIEVE ME I know rejection is hard. I’ve been rejected by the male counterpart since I took notice of them as a preteen. Even now I don’t get guys to approach me that are interested or even go the distance everyone says. I meet a nice guy but he’s attached to someone already. I met a nice guy today and he’s from Miami.
It’s just things have changed and evolved into something ugly. Most of the guys I’ve talked to or spent time with weren’t looking for self help. They felt they were the cat’s pajamas that their game is beyond fool proof. But it’s not.
I rather accept a fumbling guy than one who’s way too sure of himself.
To Steve I understand things are interpreted different ways to me. But I also know that guy was just panhandling. I didn’t always drive and catching the bus from that particular strip mall you pay when you reach your destination, not when you get on. So he could’ve gotten a ride, just suffer the consequences. I wasn’t rejecting him like most men would think. I don’t pass my number out to anyone I don’t feel comfortable with. Especially since I was stalked and followed in the past. If anyone knows what that’s like you’re paranoid as well as cautious as to who you interact with. As we speak I’m being stalked by a woman who’s mad at my uncle because he married her mom.
July 1, 2013 at 10:36 AM
I couldn’t agree more that you need to be careful who you give your information or time or money to, ItzMzBunny. Your intuition is the best guide as to who you should interact with and who you should ignore. WOmen have to be a lot more careful than men do when it comes to talking to strangers.
As for the degeneration of dating and men’s behavior, it doesn’t surprise me for two reasons. First, with everybody texting and immersed in their phones and computers, people aren’t learning important face-to-face communication skills and the social skills that go along with them. Actually talking to someone in person is fast becoming a lost art. Second, the Internet has made pornography available to anyone at any time, which has served to desensitize (mostly) men to sex and encourage them to objectify women even more than previous generations have. Technology is great but it does have its dark side.
July 2, 2013 at 6:52 AM
Wow, so many comments! I don’t really know whether or not men consider me to be beautifu, but I have had my share of suiters and many told me I am attractive using various adjectives. My husband is the only man who has ever told me I’m “beautiful”! I used to be bewildered by men, even my husband because all of my relationships were rocky. After about 15 years of marriage, I decided to start researching about how men fall in love, how they see relationships and what they like in women. Long story short, I think that it’s possible that decades of feminism have made us unrecognizable as the feminine compliment to a gentleman’s masculinity. Sure there will always be players out there, but even they can and want to settle down once they’ve met “the one”. In an effort to fix my ailing marriage, I decided to start with the basics. First, I learned how to embrace my femininity and respect his masculinity. Then I learned how to flirt a little and was surprised at how simple and ladylike flirting can be; a simple smile with 5 seconds of eye contact followed by a shy look away! Please understand that I love my husband, and I am faithful and committed to him. Nonetheless, I practiced a little harmless flirting (as described) in the grocery store, and other public places, even work, to see how men would react, and found that something miraculous happened! Nice men responded by holding doors for me, offering to do favors, sharing their expertise about things that interest me, etc. Not one asked me out on a date since I was wearing a wedding ring. This experiment was a real confidence booster for me, and possibly for some gentlemen! As I have boosted my own confidence and learned how to respect my husband’s masculinity, I have seen a lot of very positive changes in my husband; specifically, he works harder to please me, in general. I’ve also noticed more men giving me the googly eyes, but they’re always respectful! Like I said, I don’t know whethher or not I’m considered beautiful, but I sure feel beautiful because of they way that gentlemen treat me! I feel like a beautiful flower that they love to admire! Men are just people who want the same things as women, they just fall in love differently than women do. Like women, they don’t like it when someone tries to use tricks to lure them in. Be sweet and genuine, and maybe flirt a little, and your potential love will recognize and pursue you!
July 2, 2013 at 8:25 AM
“Be sweet and genuine” is always good advice, Wendywu!
July 2, 2013 at 8:55 AM
I’d say Wendywu’s advice is the best I’ve read on this board.
The biggest problem that very attractive women have is the unapproachability they project. This just sets up bigger and thicker barriers, which require braver men (hunters) to tear down. As Phil mentioned in the initial post: “The more attractive the woman, the less likely she will be approached by the kind of man who is good in relationships. ”
A woman, no matter how attractive, can make herself approachable by initiating things, not the way a man would, but the way women all throughout history have. Today’s women have forgotten the art of flirting. Being sweet and genuine, as Wendywu mentioned, is such a beautiful thing.
Just a slight smile with eye contact opens so many opportunities.
July 2, 2013 at 9:03 AM
Very well stated, Steve. One of the biggest challenges for men is the unapproachability that beautiful women project; and I’d wager that the vast majority of them have no idea that men consider them unapproachable and see an insurmountable barrier standing in their way.
July 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM
Thank you Phil and Steve for your nice responses! I have since read a few more posts from some of the beautiful ladies, and I am truly sympathetic. I don’t know where these ladies are meeting the men they’re talking about, but if they’re meeting men out in bars at night time, that could be a problem. I recall an old county song by Charlie Pride titled, “The snakes crawl at night.”… Usually right into bars and night clubs. The night life may be a great place to have fun with your lady friends once in a while, but it’s a terrible place to look for Mr. Right. I typically don’t go out at night unless I’m with my husband. My husband has a single lady co-worker who once complained that she couldn’t find any nice men to date. When my husband suggested looking for someone in a church singles group she looked at him like he had a horn growing out of his forehead! That was years ago; she’s still single and still not dating!
July 2, 2013 at 10:44 AM
Yes, if you want to date a better class of people, you better do what you can to make yourself a class act!
July 2, 2013 at 12:32 PM
To Phil, I think all women should have a second number in case they do meet someone they would like to get to know better. It’s not fun having your number passed around and stalkers are following you about.
I also understand that some people are unapproachable. I have never had a guy say that directly to me. However I did consider it and tried to fix that by approaching the guy instead. But I never got the nervousness that Phil and Steve spoke of. Just an immediate shut down and a big fat NO. That’s if he acknowledged me in the first place. One guy that works at a store he would always stare at me and after months of his staring and ignoring me and looking at me crazily. I said hello just being nice. I would always try to say hello but he never talk to me. However when I happen to wear my hair down, dressed the way I usually do, jeans and shirt. He gave me the most attractive smile I had seen. I will say I was taken aback and he even talked to me and followed me around the store like a love sick puppy. I couldn’t help but get pissed off all those times I tried to be cordial and the one day I let my hair rest from being in a ponytail always he talks me. I decided to treat him the way he treated me and it was apparently he didn’t like it. But I didn’t care because I thought that was rude. I say hello you can say it to or even wave. But nothing but cold shoulder from him.
I also can say that WendyWu has nice advice but that doesn’t work for everyone. I did that and smiled all the time. I even love to flirt but once I got into college and got a serious bad rejection, I gave up because it wasn’t getting me anywhere. I understand patience is key, but I also don’t want to look like a smiling circus freak neither. I’ve always been told I have a nice smile and I need to smile more and more but what for if it won’t be appreciated or someone says a nasty comment everything I do. I was picked on and bullied in high school so that’s when I began to limit my smiling.
Now I don’t know about the other women but I don’t go to the bars, clubs. Only night life I really enjoy is that the Wal-Mart is open 24/7 lol. Ive gone to drinking establishments but since someone is bound to get shot or have something put in their drinks, I don’t feel comfortable. I don’t even drink alcohol. Not saying I hadn’t but I got a bad hangover and realized that wasn’t my forte. I’ve looked for guys at the mall, grocery store, and other normal sane places. I don’t do church really and most of the churches in my neighbor wants you to be a member to participate in anything. I believe in all religions and can’t find myself focusing on one. But they say go where the guys are, well I think he’s more interested in the stripper than he would be in me.
If I come across a decent guy, he’s all talk. Tells me every month how much he likes me and how he can see himself being with me. But if I mention about hanging out he’s either too busy or I don’t hear from him until the next time I cross his mind. A few wanted me to come to them. I felt like I would be doing most of the work, like planning dates, making arrangements for this, driving to see him, paying for dinner all the time, and I don’t like that. Everything should be shared and equal as much as possible.
I stay mostly at home since I don’t have the means to go out like the other 20 somethings. But the places I do frequent, not only is there little to no single men (ones without kids and drama) but I’m finding there’s too many aggressive women interfering with other women. My mom says she thinks the men of today rather go after something (a woman) easy than something hard (women like me) they don’t want to work for it. She always says try to be friends first. But like Phil said the line of communicating face to face is severed so badly they don’t want to talk just a message or two and hopefully if a girl is lucky to get a date, she better expect to pay and give free sex. I guess that’s why ever got to date, I refuse to pay and give up free sex. I understand paying once in awhile is fine, but these men want to order everything off the menu and some even get up and leave you with the check forcing you to pay.
One guy wanted to go on a date with me, he brought his baby’s mother and ex girlfriend with him. Which he later said he did it to make me feel comfortable. I told him that night I forgot my wallet.
July 2, 2013 at 6:37 PM
Thanks for the responses. I empathize with your situation, as I have seen it happen all too many times.
I don’t believe women do perceive nervousness as such. A man being nervous usually just translates into either creepy or odd behaviour. When a man does seem creepy, more times than not, he is just nervous. All of this hot-cold business is, in my opinion, the courageous man fighting against the scaredy cats we all are, but try not to seem. It takes balls to speak to a beautiful women, the instinct to run away is just too strong. If you are not used to these women, even looking in their direction will produce a burning fight-or-flight sensation. Say a man is caught in the moment, and is feeling particularly social, and has a relatively normal conversation. The next day he is more in his head, his courage has diminished, and it is just more comfortable maybe to never text back than to feel crippling nerves all throughout his body. This happens even to the strongest and sturdiest of men, it’s in the genes.
As I said, I doubt this would even be perceived as nerves. It is perceived, as you say, as the man rejecting the woman. I suppose it would go back to what I said in my previous message about men and woman not vibrating on the same frecuency.
A recurrent theme I have heard women speak of over the years is “the bad men” vs “the good men”. The creepers vs Mr. Right. While I will not say that stalkers, rapists and murderers do not exist, I genuinely believe they are not as common as women believe them to be. “That creepy guy” could be a murderer, but way more likely he could just be a guy that doesn’t know what to do and could be a great partner after opening up a bit. I speak from a place of knowing absolutely nothing about women in my teens, embarassing myself constantly, and over time witnessing first-hand how slight tweaks in my behaviour created entirely different responses in the women I interacted with.
Mind you, this is not a rant concerning how “nice” self-proclaimed “nice guys” really are. What I am saying is that women have predetermined responses to conventional or unoriginal approaches. Asking for a number, a cheesy pickup line, a failed trying-to-be-too-smooth opener or even saying hello in certain cases is turned down in an automatic response. Like when someone hands you a flyer down the street and you say “No, thank you” as an automatic response, you are not thinking. More times than not, these conventional approaches that come across as creepy or boring are beginners faults, precisely the kind of fault a man who doesn’t normally approach women would possess.
A man that does manage to elicit exitement is the man that, through trial-and-error, realises how faulty these conventional approaches are, and crafts more unconventional and exciting ways to create attraction and conversation. Hence, the man that is able to do this is the man that has spoken to thousands of women and perfected his craft, the seducer, precisely the man you want to run away from.
This is the ironic part. This means that the more initially exciting a man is, the more chances of him using you for sex and never calling back. These seducers, and society’s inhibitions as well, train women to see sex as something they are giving a man, not something they can enjoy with a man, no matter how soon in the relationship. This feeling of being slutty, I would say, is a major barrier when it comes to relationships.
The exciting seducer is out for sex. But, if you lay your hands on a normal and vulnerable man, sex is a form of bonding in itself. My advice would be to forget all of this “feeling slutty” nonsense, and have sex when it feels right, if you feel connected enough to the man to do it, and you feel he is the kind of man that will stick around. I have seen it happen all too often that the woman will want to have sex, but will refuse for social reasons, the man will feel rejected as a sexual being and then loses interest. For a good man, sex is a form of bonding, it brings people together. The man feels accepted for who he is. For a bad man, sex is the opposite.
July 2, 2013 at 6:58 PM
Very perceptive, Steve. A good friend of mine told me that a woman he was dating kept refusing his sexual advances. Finally, she relented and it was a great experience for both of them. He asked her, “Why did you keep on saying no”? She told him, “I didn’t want you to think I was easy.” Credit to my friend for continuing to pursue her; most men would have felt rejected and given up. Women who act like this like to think they’re playing by “the rules” when no such rules exist. Men can’t read women’s minds and tend to assume the worst. The woman is playing a game that the man isn’t aware of and doesn’t understand. The woman thinks she’s being a “good girl” but it’s all in her imagination and has no basis in reality as far as most men are concerned. Women often say they want a man to “work for it,” but ironically, the men who are willing to work for it are typically the ones who view hunting, seducing and conquering women as sport. So by playing this game that only she’s aware of, a woman is unwittingly attracting the very guys she’s trying to avoid.
Your advice is perfect: Just have sex when it feels right. Go by your intuitive sense and not by some artificial rules that the guy is clueless about. It’s like the woman is playing bridge and the man is playing “Go Fish” at the same time, neither one knowing that the other has no concept of what the other one is doing.
July 2, 2013 at 8:11 PM
To Steve I can say I will take a flyer or any handout because I know what it’s like to hope someone takes one. That’s just the way I am.
I disagree with the nervousness being a serious issue. What you call “nervousness” I do perceive as rejection. Even more so when another girl who I think isn’t really up to par, and he gets overly “excited” to talk to her but I got rejected even though I may have said hello or tried to get his attention.
It’s not necessarily true what you and Phil said about sex being viewed negatively. I enjoy it very much but I’m not going to have sex with anybody just because the mood hits me right. That’s not safe and trust me having a STD, a UTI and being pregnant by someone who doesn’t care isn’t a fun experience. I was quite unhappy.
However I do think if you have a mutual attraction with someone you should be able to open up to them sexually and hope for a positive experience.
I’m talking about men or as Steve refered to them as “the seducers” who want sex and nothing more. Those men I refuse to sleep with. It’s apparent they don’t want a relationship, much less a long-term commitment of any sort. Plus with the sexual diseases going around you just can’t jump into bed with anybody. I’m not saying you have to know their life story. But women don’t need to find out midway through that she’s one of 4 or more other girls. Then imagine those women having other men they’re sleeping with, and the other women those men are sleeping with. All because the mood hits them right.
As for Phil’s friend I understand what his girlfriend meant. Most men assume its being rejected sexually. Good or decent women see it as soon as I open up sexually there’s a possibility I may get left. Or like I read in one thread a few months ago, the guy said he had a woman for every want and desire he had. One who cooked well, one who gave money, one who gave good sex and so on and so forth. He said he would never find a woman who could be capable of giving him all he wanted or needed. Plus then he felt he wouldn’t have to make a commitment because there’s too many of them and who cares. I was shocked reading that but that makes sense.
To Steve’s nervousness scenario, I hate raccoons. I’m deathly afraid of them. However since they come out as soon as it gets dark, I can’t say I won’t ever go in the dark. At some point I may have to go to store or maybe me and my mother are coming home late from a relative’s house. So I had to learn to overcome that fear and handle it the best way I knew how. It may be silly but I’m doing my best to keep from fearing them. Same goes I can’t sit there and think every “nice guy” I meet will rape me or every “seducer” will be a complete jerk. I also hope they don’t see or think that telling me I’m beautiful will get them to have sex with me faster and I’ll be waiting around for them either.
It’s not wavelengths or frequency. It’s just how communication has evolved over the years. I’ve also had some guys use a code of talk on me, they’ll ask me on a date or for a cup of coffee but in his mind he asked me for sex and I agreed thinking I’m getting a cup of coffee and nice conversation. One guy said he wanted to play board games with me. I said no. Because he asked me out plenty of times before but it always revolved around sex. I may get to go to a family restaurant dinner if I take him out and pay for everything, I may get to spend time with him if I happily agreed to have his fourth baby. I wasn’t about to go over to his house and he also wanted me to spend the night. Then he had the audacity to call me nasty and wanting sex. That was the farthest thing from my mind. I’m not fond of men who have kids. I don’t know about other women but I feel threatened and like a runner-up basically.
Even surrounding myself with a better class of people. The college crowd are nasty. Like their attitudes are terrible. I should know. It’s ridiculous at how rude and obnoxious they are. I can say the ones I thought I befriended, I don’t even talk to or hear from. They wouldn’t even invite me to their gatherings they had. My community is small and is basically filled with the party-having and bar-hopping 20-somethings. I’m happy going to the movies or even being at home, I even like the craft store. But it’s rare to find the same kinds of people that I feel I would mix well with. Same goes for men. It’s rare to see a man alone at a restaurant or even at a store.
It just baffles me that men who seem single are disinterested until a slurry girl comes along. I’ve even had some say they don’t have the time or treat it as me being annoying but I didn’t know “talking and getting to know someone” annoying.
I think there should be more single themes groups and events. Maybe possibly even some classes on how to overcome this so-called nervousness and definitely personality and communication classes or something.
Now the current guy I’m talking to I have an interest and he approached me and I feel I have a connection with him but he seems to get off path. One minute he’s screaming for a relationship. Then the next he’s talking about how he wants to complete his life with a career and a college education. I asked him what he wanted the next few years and it was all talk about career this and career that. Then the next day he’s like I like you and can see myself being with you. He even talked about marriage and stuff. Yet he also refuses to ever come to where I live because he considers it a bad neighborhood. Even told me I need to consider moving. All I could think of if I was in the line of danger would he say he can’t come help or rescue me because it’s “bad” or not to his liking?? Even when I tried to say that where I lived was a better street mostly occupied by old people, he still wouldn’t change his mind. And I didn’t want to put myself where I’m the one running to him and he’s just focused on him. I like him, but I’m baffled as to what else to do with him. He’s a nice guy but between him whining about his desired career, he seems to have a low self-esteem. I try to be encouraging and it shoots up but by tomorrow is down under again.
It’s hard, difficult. Technology has made things intangible and yet convenient. People no longer know what they want. I get mostly everyone wants to settle down with someone, but sometimes some people who aren’t exposed to such a thing can never make that a want. They feel they don’t need it. I know for a fact growing up I was one of very few kids that had both parents. Some just had one and they develop those mommy/daddy issues whatever those are and some feel, well, my mom/dad (and sometimes grandparent) did it with no one so it’s perceived as the correct thing to do. Like a puppy peeing on the carpet. It will feel and seem right if you don’t correct it or tell it that no there’s other places for you to potty. But the puppy won’t know and will pee wherever.
July 2, 2013 at 8:16 PM
ItzMzBunny, I couldn’t agree with you more about being careful about having sex. Saying that it’s okay to have sex when it feels right is not the same as saying to have sex indiscriminately. It will only “feel right” if you have a solid relationship with someone and you perceive that he’s someone you’re willing to invest yourself in. If you find someone like that, then “playing games” can become counterproductive.
When I mentioned that it would be helpful to associate with a better class of people, that doesn’t mean college kids or any group of people necessarily. College kids have classes but that doesn’t mean they have class! I’m talking about people with strong values who are mature, empathetic and compassionate. Granted, given that you’re only twenty-six, that may be hard to find right now. Just don’t forget that there are millions of high-quality people out there.
Your puppy analogy is a good one. Too many men are like puppies, but it’s a pain to try to house-train them!
July 2, 2013 at 8:18 PM
Wow, both the article and the testimonies here are very eye opening.
This reminds me of when I was back in my early 20’s. I started training martial arts and the daughter of the teacher (who also taught class occasionally) was this GORGEOUS, humorous, high-spirited young woman, who was always smiling and in a good mood. I quickly developed a huge infatuation on her as she embodied everything I could ever want in a woman. She had a boyfriend at first but she broke up with him later because, well, he was a “hunter” as you describer. We became friends after a while and it’s apparent to me TODAY that she also wanted me to make a move on her. She would often start conversations with me, ask things about my life, laugh at my jokes even when they weren’t funny, she would touch me in the arm a lot, sit/stand close to me when we were in a group etc. But back then I was like “Nah, she’s probably like that with everyone. What’s a woman like that gonna want with me!?”. So, sadly, I stood in my comfort zone and never made my move on her, even thought she couldn’t POSSIBLY have made it easier for me.
Men build these prisons around themselves unfortunately. The prison is safe, the prison is predictable. It’s more comfortable to live in the prison than to venture off seeking the treasures that lie outside in the cold. We gain nothing by staying inside, but we don’t have to risk losing anything by going outside. We know we can step outside anytime we want but we’re always putting it off or coming up with creative excuses not to.
However it never dawned on me that women might also be suffering because of our behavior. Thank you Phil, maybe you should write more on this topic.
July 3, 2013 at 5:49 AM
Yep, sounds like you missed a golden opportunity, BHS. Wish I couldn’t relate. *sighs heavily*
A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that’s unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push it.
Ludwig Wittgenstein
July 3, 2013 at 6:53 AM
Dear gentlemen, I just want to offer this little tidbit of information from an attractive lady; myself! LOL! Of course I always appreciate the looks of any man who is handsome in the classical sense, but I rarely feel attracted to most of them. Genuine attraction requires something much deeper. First of all there is that whole pheromone thing, obviously. Then there is the matter of his character. He must be able to humbly and honestly let his qualities shine through in the way he presents himself and interacts with people; qualities such as kindness, compassion, fairness, fun, responsibility, and loyalty. He doesn’t have to be super successful, but every lady likes a man who is reasonably passionate about, confident, and successful in his work or craft. If a man has a great sense of humor (not at the expense of others), and a tender heart and can express it without fear or blame, then he will be very attractive regardless of his looks (as long as he doesn’t look physically repulsive). Danny DeVito is a perfect example of what I’m describing here. He’s sweet, funny, fun, successful, confident, and not handsome in the classical sense but definitely very attractive! It takes time to get to know someone in that deeper sense, that’s why it’s important not to look for love in all the wrong places! Sometimes we get lucky and meet someone wonderful by chance, but for the most part one has to know oneself, what characteristics one will appreciate in a prospective mate, then consider where one might meet such a person. The best way to increase the odds in one’s favor is to just do what you naturally enjoy doing, hobbies etc., and be willing to wait for the right person to show up; realizing that they might not look like what you’re hoping to get. If your Miss Right happens to be physically beautiful, that should just be a bonus on top of all of her other wonderful qualities. And if you’re physically hansdome in the classical sense, then that should also be a bonus on top of your wonderful qualities. Some ladies and gentlemen may want to take stock of their character before looking/hoping for love. Consider this, if you were someone else and met you, would you be impressed by your own personal character? If not maybe a little personal housekeeping is in order first. Not to impune Mr. BHSs character which sounds wonderful! Any way, that’s how attraction seems to work for me. I have found no shortage of gentlemen with these qualities! Indeed, I was once a lady who had to “take stock” and do a little personal housekeeping so to speak, because I was afraid of men since I had a mean and abusive father. I was sure that once they got to know me on a deeper level that they would find me unattractive. It took some time to figure out that they couldn’t determine my attractiveness on a deeper level if I wouldn’t/couldn’t let them see the real me free of fear, anxiety and expectations. Prayer was a big help for me. I asked God to help me see what I needed to see and to heal me from the inside out. What a wonderful Father He is!
July 3, 2013 at 7:03 AM
Wonderful stated, Wendywu. At the start of this post, I linked to my post, “What Do Women Want? It’s Not That Difficult, Guys” (https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/cherish/) in which I wrote:
Fortunately, guys, there’s hope, even if you don’t have a clue that you don’t have a clue. But you have to understand and accept that there are no shortcuts. Enlightenment requires a heightened awareness, a fierce dedication to honesty at all costs and a willingness to admit that you still have a lot to learn. It may take years, but if you’re willing to put in the time and effort, the chances are good that someday you’ll “get it.”
You can start by recognizing the difference between being self-centered and centered in your self. (Tape these five words to your bathroom mirror: “It’s not always about me.”) This may sound odd at first, but get to know yourself. Pick up a few books on spirituality. Try meditating. Look within instead of focusing all your attention on the external world. It’s one of life’s greatest truths that love is for people who know who they are. Until then, it’s just practice.
The trouble is, there are way too many people who don’t have a clue that they don’t have a clue. No matter how gently and compassionately you try to tell such people that they don’t have a clue, they act insulted, get defensive and accuse you of being arrogant.
Their response proves the point. Someone who is enlightened and mature considers criticism objectively; he/she either accepts the criticism as true and changes his/her behavior accordingly, or judges the criticism as lacking in merit and dismisses it without a second thought.
I know this to be true because I used to be among the chronically clueless. I was wildly immature and unenlightened, but you never would have convinced me of that (and believe me, many tried). Ah, the bulletproof days of youth. *cringes at the thought*
July 3, 2013 at 9:39 AM
Beautiful posts. I can particularly relate to what Wendywu mentioned about ending up loving someone whose looks never particularly fitted the model you had in mind. We can’t really put down shopping lists of what we like, I’d say the only way of knowing what we like is by being aware of the feeling when it arrives.
As much as I like to overanalyze things logically, I’d say the amount of things that we can truly come to know are quite limited. I like to put forward positions that maybe someone will empathize with, or relate back to their experience, but I do not like to lecture people, because as much as I think I like to know about women or about anything in general, chances are I am clueless. Chances are everyone is clueless.
There are certain logical reference points gained from experience that should vaguely guide behaviour. But, I’d say it is a danger to map out every detail of an emotional world from a logical standpoint, since the chances of doing so successfully are slim to none.
One should try not to over-artificialize behaviour. Sure, a woman can say she will not date seducers, but that can degenerate into a downward spiral where she rejects every man automatically. She can say she doesn’t want to have sex soon because she was hurt in the past, but that can turn into rejecting the man you were meant to marry. The examples are endless.
Emotions should be the centre. Logic is just the cherry on top.
July 3, 2013 at 10:11 AM
Quite true, Steve. Permit me to excerpt a section from my book, “Through God’s Eyes: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World” (http://GodsEyesBook.com):
INTELLECT AND INTUITION
The more you trust in your ability to tune in to your intuitive wisdom, the easier it will be to access it. Relying on logic alone to guide your actions will take you only so far.
If we listened to our intellect, we’d never have a love
affair. We’d never have a friendship. We’d never go
into business, because we’d be cynical. Well, that’s
nonsense. You’ve got to jump off cliffs all the time
and build your wings on the way down.
Ray Bradbury
A great intellect is a great blessing. It can also be a great curse if it blocks you from accessing the wisdom of your heart.
The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is
like a condemned man who is proud of his large cell.
Simone Weil
Your intellectual decisions are biased by the quality of your knowledge, the influence of your belief system, and your unique psychological profile.
Watch out for intellect, because it knows so much it knows
nothing and leaves you hanging upside down, mouthing
knowledge as your heart falls out of your mouth.
Anne Sexton
Your intuitive promptings bypass these personal biases and harmonize your actions with Universal Intelligence.
You have to be able to do what your mind would
give you logical reasons to not do. You have to be
everything your soul beckons you to be and everything
your mind tells you to be cautious about.
Caroline Myss
Intuitive guidance manifests as inner resolve that cannot be explained by intellectual argument alone.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those
who don’t believe, no proof is possible.
Stuart Chase
Yet neither can you rely solely on your inner voice. You are at your best when your conscious intellect operates in tandem with your superconscious intuition.
It is always with excitement that I wake up in the
morning wondering what my intuition will toss up to
me, like gifts from the sea. I work with it and rely on
it. It’s my partner.
Dr. Jonas Salk
If you cannot discern intuition from intellect, continue to walk your path; every day brings greater clarity and insight.
If we are facing in the right direction, all we have to do
is keep on walking.
Buddhist proverb
July 3, 2013 at 12:28 PM
I do agree with what Phil and WendyWu said about looks not being everything. I can say looks was never a big issue fore and neither was race since my dad was Caucasian and my mother is Black. They taught me to like someone for their personality and never their looks. I guess because that was instilled in me at a young age it was easier to accept.
Unfortunately for most people that isn’t the case. They expect the rock hard perfect chiseled body or the super model beauty.
To Phil I understand what you meant by a better classification of people, and for me or would the more college goers so to speak. Even though they shun people who aren’t in their circle. We all know an educated fool, I went to a college full of them lol. Even the nicer or decent people are so wrapped around their social status and reputation like its the 14th Century it’s hard to make friends or even get to know people any more. I tried to make a new set of friends a few years ago and once they got coupled off and had their babies I got forced out like someone popping a pimple before a big date or dance. Since I’m the only singleton without kids I couldn’t “participate” if that makes sense. Most of the singletons when I would try to suggest an outing or a night of se kind or fun, I always received one of those Excuses BHS talked about.
I do agree with BHS as far as men putting up their barrier. I appreciate that as well, I wonder sometimes what’s so great about me and what do I have to offer to make him feel that I’m worthy candidate and something that won’t be a mistake or regret. However I think when we muster up the courage to talk to someone and try to get them to make a move or even make a suggestion. Sometimes they’re so withdrawn its hard to communicate. It like they’re in a glass box that’s sound proof.
Hopefully people will come to understand that looks don’t matter just like everything else, over time it’s appearance will change. It definitely won’t look the way it did. Then too I agree with the “not the way we pictured it” not regarding relationships but life itself. You can sit there and plan and plan. But it never turns out the way you want. However you should be able to compensate life and go with the flow so to speak and find what you want without being too demanding. Like men wanting women wearing make up, or women wanting good looking men with a nice pocketbook.
Also, just because one or a few bad experiences I don’t think people should shit down completely. Unless they’ve had tons of people approach them via real life or Internet. After awhile getting the same rejection gets old and you automatically begin to push people away which I understand, I feel the same way.
July 3, 2013 at 12:32 PM
ItzMzBunny, I think it’s safe to say that with age comes wisdom and maturity. Generally speaking, the older you get, and the more fully you know yourself, the better the odds of finding someone compatible who also “gets it.” That’s not especially helpful when you’re in your twenties, but hopefully you will find that finding the right guy will be worth the wait.
July 3, 2013 at 2:06 PM
Hello again :) This post has become a little corner of comfort/understanding/source of positive thinking when things aren’t going great.
I just came back from a 2nd date to which I forced myself to go. The jackass man kept staring at my boobs (though they’re small!) or looking around like I was boring him or something and was obviously not listening to what I was saying. Still, he tried for a kiss good night. I was really not happy.
Been dating again lately and I just feel like crying most of the time. The good looking guy pays no attention to me but prefers to collect skanky women on FB; the average divorced man (see above); the artist dude tries to slip his hand down my shirt in public. It goes on and on.
So I just wanted to let the good guys out there know that, like in many places, here sits a pretty woman who would love to be treated like a person. I have a personality, I have opinions, I have a brain and I should not be made to feel ashamed about the way I look. I’m not superior to other women and the fact that I haven’t taken up opportunities to snatch up some rich dude actually makes me a good person, it doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with me.
Just yesterday I was looking at the lingerie my “cool” a*hole ex never appreciated, sexy stuff I like wearing for myself sometimes but it would be nice to wear it for someone else before most of it disintegrates in the back of the closet. Yes, I like sex and there are tons of fun/wild/sweet/loving/crazy things I would love to try with a boyfriend who loves me and who will put his arms around me when I need it. Good guys do that.
There are bitchy pretty women just like there are bitchy average looking women but I think there are many women who, like me, have had to resort to be standoffish to ward off the jerks who will stare at our breasts. Off to bed trying to scrape up some positive dating attitude off the ground.
July 3, 2013 at 3:03 PM
Sorry you’re having such poor experiences with Men, Jenna. At the end, I’m not clear on whether you conduct yourself fin a standoffish way to ward off jerks all the time or only when you’re in the company of a jerk. If it’s all the time, even though I understand why you feel you need to do that, that’s likely working against you because the guys who usually are intimidated by beautiful women would be even more intimidated by one who was standoffish.
It seems to me that a good approach would be to try online dating and to get a conversation going before you meet in person. If a guy comes across in e-mail as authentic, warm and caring, chances are he’s not going to be a jerk when you actually meet.
July 3, 2013 at 4:26 PM
WendyWu, thanks for sharing your wisdom, I really appreciate it :)
Yes. You, me and Phil agree that the way out is in. I began meditating in 2010 and I can literally divide my life in before and after I started doing it. Nothing has ever had such a profound impact on my thoughts, emotions, the way I behaved and perceived the world. When you get in touch with your heart, everything starts falling into place. Problems that I had brainstormed over my whole trying to come up with a solution, suddenly started melting away without me actually reaching an eureka. And when I looked back thinking “Ok, what exactly did I do to fix this?” I could never quite put my finger on it. I just stopped being the person who created those problems in the first place, and chose to create something new instead!
I still have a LOT of ground to cover before my house is clean though, but a life spent on this path is a life well spent. Hopefully when I cross paths with another Jennifer (that was her name) I’ll at least have clean windows, a well lit interior and a welcome mat on the porch.
Hey Phil I just bought your book. Looking forward to reading it.
Cheers!
July 3, 2013 at 4:32 PM
Love that you’re doing such thorough interior housecleaning, BHS! Yes, personal growth and self-improvement are huge keys to, well, everything, but it’s hard to explain that to someone who is dismissive of it or isn’t ready to hear it.
Thanks so much for buying my book. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it!
July 3, 2013 at 5:37 PM
Well yeah I guess for some waiting is an ok thing to do. However I don’t have the time to wait forever. Forever is never promised.
I had originally planned on being married by 20 and starting a family by 22. But like everything else that plan never followed through. I said once I was nearing my 20th birthday that my cut off would be 26. My personal feeling really. I can’t see spending ten years in the courtship ritual without really knowing if he’s interested or not. Or may find something better suited to/for him. Plus after seeing my mom get sick in my teens and my dad dying shortly after that, I always knew I wanted kids and family early so I knew I had time to enjoy it. I just wasn’t expecting a large majority of men being so difficult or picky. I never knew things that made me…ME, would be a total turn off for a guy. I didn’t know long hair would be a turn off to some guys. And even when I cut it some didn’t it like it.
I’m done trying every single angle to get a guy just be interested in a date or even possible relationship and I got rejection and artic freeze from these guys. Or even cussed out because I refused to “have fun sex” with him.
After this last guy I’m personally giving up. It seems like every time I think I’m close to snagging a decent guy. He turns out to be either flakey, married or found something more interesting like an old flame. No one has time for this back and forth mouse game.
I totally understand the process and get things take time. But just like a jag off guy won’t wait for sex and will only be told so many times before he takes his business elsewhere. I’m only gong to accept no and rejection and lousy excuses for so long. I’ve reached the breaking point and basic have very little interest in men. If the girls were just as bad I’d give them another go. Only way of be interested in having a relationship would be out of convenient purposes (Which I’m sure the older crowd knows a lot about). But that’s just me.
I think most women should be happy they actually get asked on a date and he shows up regardless if its a bummer, terrible or even by chance a great one. There are many girls like me who don’t ever get the chance to date and probably never will.
Some cat ladies don’t become cat ladies by their own choice. But it’s still a choice and they have to respect that. Not saying it can’t change but its a two way street and the other party has to meet you half way if you’re already there standing and waiting “patiently.”
July 3, 2013 at 8:12 PM
Good grief. After first reading this article, I was relieved in a way, to have my eyes opened to this. But after reading every one of these comments, I am sitting here more incredulous and fed up than ever. Let me see if I have this straight:
• We can’t be too pretty but we should be attractive enough to be – attractive.
• We shouldn’t be afraid to approach men but we can’t come off as too aggressive, lest we scare the poor darlings away, or have them assume we are trawling for sex.
• We can’t make too much money or be too accomplished, but we have to be happy with our lives, and confident.
• We should not let ourselves be objectified, but we should come across as – what was that word? – “achievable”? Seriously?
Is there any other more complex pretzel of convoluted beingness we women must contort ourselves into so that we may win the big prize of having a man?
And, forgive but – this is the most inaccurate statement of all:
“It seems to me that a good approach would be to try online dating and to get a conversation going before you meet in person. If a guy comes across in e-mail as authentic, warm and caring, chances are he’s not going to be a jerk when you actually meet.”
Online dating is a veritable cesspool of epic lying. Anyone who has done it can testify to that. Even men who, in person, come across as warm, caring, protective and sensitive, even the downright unattractive ones who win us over by seeming to be sweet-hearted, caring guys – can turn out to be lying, cheating bastards.
Whenever I read anything like this, it always seems to boil down to the burden being on women to morph ourselves into these impossible modes of behavior in order to dodge the jerks, liars and players, mollycoddle the shy ones despite all appearances of being rejected ourselves, take care not to come across as predatory if we just smile and say hello, which will then trigger the change from shy, nice guy to hunter, and somehow intuit when it’s A-OK to have sex and still be respected versus being a lady, having self-respect and risk making the GUY feel rejected?
No man, NO MAN is prize enough to put yourselves through this. Be yourself, populate your world with good friends, be as GD successful and beautiful as you want to be, and if there is such a prize man worth y of all that, he will present himself as a GENTLEMAN and it will just happen naturally. All this behavior modification as a work-around for dysfunctional and clearly unworthy men is for the birds. And no, I am not an angry, bitter bitch. I am by all accounts a beautiful, kind-hearted, affectionate, supportive, appreciative, talented, loving woman who is just sick and tired of having all that be made somehow a detriment. Seriously. Who needs this?
July 3, 2013 at 10:05 PM
Hi, L.M. Let me reply to each of your concerns:
• We can’t be too pretty but we should be attractive enough to be – attractive.
Nothing here says you can’t be too pretty. It’s just that if you are extremely attractive, it may be helpful to be aware of how men may be responding to you.
• We shouldn’t be afraid to approach men but we can’t come off as too aggressive, lest we scare the poor darlings away, or have them assume we are trawling for sex.
Other people who left comments on this post may feel that way, but I certainly don’t. If you’re confident and brave enough to approach men, then the poor darlings you scare away are probably not the guys you’d be interested in anyway. Personally, I would never think that a woman who approaches men in an authentic, positive way is trawling for sex. That strikes me as a warped view of women.
• We can’t make too much money or be too accomplished, but we have to be happy with our lives, and confident.
Not sure where you got this from. The more accomplished you are, the more attractive you are to a number of accomplished men. Yes, more men may be intimidated by the potent combination of beauty and success, but that just serves to eliminate the men you wouldn’t be interested in anyway.
• We should not let ourselves be objectified, but we should come across as – what was that word? – “achievable”? Seriously?
No, not achievable. Approachable. In my view, both men and women would have more positive experiences if they project kindness and warmth rather than being standoffish and aloof. The kind of man who assume that a woman “wants them” just because she smiles and says hello is typically a self-absorbed, immature man-child whom savvy women can quickly recognize as such. This came up because some women who have commented on this post acknowledged that they’ve retreated into aloofness as a means of protection. While that may be understandable, it serves to create barriers and makes them less approachable. Again, that dynamic holds true for men as well.
You also wrote:
Online dating is a veritable cesspool of epic lying. Anyone who has done it can testify to that. Even men who, in person, come across as warm, caring, protective and sensitive, even the downright unattractive ones who win us over by seeming to be sweet-hearted, caring guys – can turn out to be lying, cheating bastards.
While it’s true that men may be skilled at saying what they think a woman wants to hear, I contend that a mature, savvy woman should be able to weed out such transparently inauthentic sweet-talkers through in-depth, emotionally intimate conversation. There’s a huge difference between saying something because you think a woman wants to hear it and saying it because that’s who you authentically are. Granted, a woman who yearns to be swept off her feet may unconsciously tune out her intuitive “jerk” alarm and become more vulnerable to sweet-talkers with bad intentions. For both women and men, it takes maturity and wisdom to be able to stay authentically approachable while readily recognizing inauthentic behavior.
As for your contention that the burden is on women when it comes to finding a good partner, I can certainly understand why it may feel that way. In reality, it’s men who need to grow up and get a clue. Essentially, women are suffering because too many men don’t measure up in the maturity department. Your advice to women to simply be themselves is spot on. A woman who compromises who she is to get a man is setting herself up for a less-than-satisfying relationship and, years later, a heartbreaking epiphany that she has lost herself along the way. Novelist Susan Sussman was speaking to these women when she wrote: “You show me a woman who hasn’t fantasized getting in a car and leaving home and I’ll show you a woman who doesn’t drive.”
May you and all women find what you’re looking for. And if that happens to include a good man, so much the better.
July 3, 2013 at 11:36 PM
Phil wrote: “At the end, I’m not clear on whether you conduct yourself fin a standoffish way to ward off jerks all the time or only when you’re in the company of a jerk.”
I try to be open and friendly, which leads guys to believe I’m a floozie, which leads me to become standoffish till I realize/a friend points out I’m not being “nice” and that’s why supposedly nice guys are steering clear. Repeat loop.
I’ve started with online dating, that’s where the 2nd date from last night came from. So far I can’t say it’s encouraging.
July 6, 2013 at 7:14 AM
Jenna, I would challenge your belief that men think you’re a floozie just because you’re open and friendly. Kind-hearted, mature men don’t think that way; they’re looking for open, friendly women. It appears that you’re tailoring your behavior to the kind of men you don’t want any part of. I would encourage you and all women to be open and friendly, and learn to weed out the ones who reveal themselves to be jerks, which usually happens in short order.
Ultimately, the better you know yourself, the better you will recognize when others are being inauthentic. I covered this in more depth in my book, “Through God’s Eyes: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World” (http://GodsEyesBook.com). Here is a section that speaks to this:
SEEKING A SOULMATE
Your search for a romantic partner will move closer to fruition once you direct your attention within.
Those who go searching for love only find their own
lovelessness. But the loveless never find love; only the
loving find love, and they never have to search for it.
D. H. Lawrence
You dramatically improve the odds of meeting your soulmate when you stop trying to find the right person and start trying to be the right person.
To be loved, be worthy to be loved.
Ovid
Prepare yourself in body, mind, and spirit to welcome your beloved. Commit to a life of absolute integrity, vigilant self-awareness, and continual self-improvement.
When you realize you want to spend the rest of your
life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to
start as soon as possible.
Nora Ephron
You cannot fully and confidently give your heart to another until you assume total responsibility for your own happiness and well-being.
You can love only in proportion to your capacity for
independence.
Rollo May
Your maturity reaches the tipping point when you recognize the difference between being self-centered and being centered in your self.
The purpose of relationship is not to have another
who might complete you; but to have another with
whom you might share your completeness.
Neale Donald Walsch
As awareness grows, you naturally develop greater empathy, compassion, and generosity of spirit. Ultimately, any tendency to be controlling, demanding, or self-serving vanishes in a puff of higher consciousness.
The most important ingredient we put into any
relationship is not what we say or what we do, but
what we are.
Stephen R. Covey
The greater your autonomy, self-knowledge, and self-confidence, the greater the likelihood you will attract a compatible, emotionally healthy partner.
Love is for people who know who they are.
Nathaniel Branden
Too many lonely, frustrated souls are unwilling to do the self-work that spiritual partnership demands. Instead, they chase a fairy-tale fantasy and wonder why it continues to elude them.
True love is like ghosts, which everyone talks about
but few have seen.
François de La Rochefoucauld
Every day that you follow your guidance and do the hard work of self-development brings you one day closer to encountering your beloved.
Don’t rush into any kind of relationship. Work on
yourself. Feel yourself, experience yourself and love
yourself. Do this first and you will soon attract that
special loving other.
Russ von Hoelscher
The more effort you put into making yourself lovable, the more effortlessly love will show up in your life.
When love comes it comes without effort, like perfect
weather.
Helen Yglesias
July 6, 2013 at 8:26 AM
I’m sorry Phil but I’m going to have to agree with both L.M. & Jenna.
There’s so many double negatives and double standards as far as being a woman that it makes it hard just to be yourself. Can’t be death skinny but you can’t be Michelin Fat either. But you can control what genetics have given you right?? I can’t control my natural rapid hair color change. Unlike everyone else my hair doesn’t lighten in the summer, it turns a bright red. For a guy to say he doesn’t like that is ridiculous.
Same goes for online dating, every guy I’ve talked to via the computer or what have you were only interested in sex, he refused to talk to me or even be this “authentic, compassionate” ring you speak of. I’ve had some whom did the oppose of what you said, I got rejected because I dropped out of college and live with my mom. If that isn’t down right silly I don’t know what is. But because they’re so fickle minded they don’t know I dropped out because I had no choice, no money no college and my dad had just died suddenly on Thanksgiving break. I went to live with my mom because well I had no place else to go. Besides I didn’t like that she being disabled and sick (my mom had brain surgery 9yrs ago) and being home alone.
I don’t think you should judge people without getting to know them. However how can judge a man when he wants little to no interaction with you unless it’s free sex.
The main problem is and this is what the other women who are single don’t understand is you’re in a completely different age bracket. You’re going by your own actions and how those you are close to would react. Not saying that’s a bad thing, however the world has evolved. Men no longer hold the doors open for women. Gone are the days where a man says hello. Like Jenna says you smile and they immediately think you want sex. I hate making eye contact with men because they’re ridiculously hard to talk to and interpret things differently.
It’s like what I said about a guy asking a girl out for a cup of coffee. She’s agreeing to a beverage and idle entertaining conversation. He just asked her for sex and she happily agreed. Yet when it turns sour and that miscommunication comes to light, both parties are mad. I left my stuff at a guys house and went to go retrieve it, he told me I could have my stuff once I had sex with him. I refused and we had a physical fight by the end of the night a nice guy was suppose to take me home but thought raping me would be instead. I agreed to pay him for troubling himself on picking me up which can be a burden. He thought I was agreeing to “compensating” him by sex. See what I mean??
I understand you may not know a lot of people don’t. However you can’t say oh there’s great guys out there and they’re just as bad as the sex gods. Approach a guy whether he’s a good guy or a complete jerk there’s only 2 things that happen: I get rejected cold and harshly or he wants to be compensated for me wasting his time by dropping my pants.
A woman already has to be judge by fellow females, but when the males get in on it it’s the absolute worst!! There’s too many dos and don’t and so much left out. I think people who have, or always had or by the heavens above got a good relationship or a series of them forget that its not always like that for everyone. You and my mom and many others are those people. You all fail to realize that some women get jerks and may feel stuck like a skipping record. Others have tried various angles on attracting a man yet they walk by like she’s a ghost. Some will go the extreme and sleep with a complete stranger in hopes of that just might come back to see me. Then there are some who get decisions made for us like falling in love with an unattainable man (be he married or otherwise). I fell in love with a married man, he never mentioned his wife not once and when I found out it was too late. However I’m wrong because I should’ve known he was married. Well he wasn’t wearing a ring, never mentioned her, and even asked me out. But I’m wrong. Seeing his face today ticked me off immediately. He took away love that I could’ve gave to someone else. He made me fall in love with him by being that nice authentic guy the whole while using me to make up where his wife lacks. That hurt, when I thought falling in love with someone who accepts me and even goes the extra distance that made me happy, but I didn’t think I’d be in love with someone I can NEVER HAVE let alone knowing he never wanted me just what I could give up. He even had the nerve to be controlling and tell my mother everywhere I went. What hurt the most he told my mom he was married and she scolded me for not knowing. Well how am I suppose to know if he doesn’t say so and there’s no proof?? Thank god for the internet otherwise I would’ve been in the dark.
It’s hard to fall in love and be told no go try again. thats like being stripped of your ability to walk and society’s like you have to use the stairs ff you want paradise. I don’t regret falling in love with him because I got to know what its like, but I’m disgusted I wasted 3 years on him all to be treated like I hurt his feelings. Please.
Go fall in love says society. It’ll be fun they said. But they forget to leave out that you might get raped, hurt, beat, betrayed, rejected, objectified, used, abused, and many other things. You can’t frost a cake that’s falling apart. Sooner or later it’ll turn into a mess. Right now this world is a mess. There isn’t anymore happy marriages, no more dating and more baby mamas and baby daddies than you can stick a shake at.
The dating scene sucks anymore. A good majority of men aren’t interested in making a relationship with a woman unless he makes an exception for her. Like that guy told me all men have that one woman they keep at home and love to death, no matter her role (wife, girlfriend, mistress, etc.) They love her. And women like me are only good enough to have sex with and throw away like a used condom. Either we accept that role or be lonely.
He wasn’t the only one who said that to me. Please don’t misunderstand I’m not lashing out at you. But you can’t sugar coat things. It’s not good. Nor is it healthy. I hate hearing how pretty I am, yet a many of men say how not in a billion years I will never be good enough so tough luck. It’s confusing. And hurtful.
July 6, 2013 at 1:27 PM
ItzMzBunny, the truth of your experiences is very different from mine. Not only am I thirty years older than you are, we are also separated by different racial, cultural, socioeconomic and environmental conditions.
That said, everyone contributes to the what they view as reality by their mindset and attitude. You wrote, “Right now this world is a mess. There isn’t anymore happy marriages.” I strongly disagree. I see plenty of positive signs that the world is inching ever closer to a brighter future. I also know many, many people who have wonderfully happy marriages.
The following excerpt from my book, “Through God’s Eyes: Finding Peace and Purpose in a Troubled World” (http://GodsEyesBook.com ) speaks to this:
PATTERNS OF PERCEPTION
Since your thoughts define how you show up in the world, the surest way to change who you are is to change the pattern of your thoughts.
Nurture your mind with great thoughts. To believe in
the heroic makes heroes.
Benjamin Disraeli
You may believe that the world is menacing and chaotic, that no one can be trusted, that life is an endless series of bad breaks and hard knocks. After all, rare is the person who has not been bullied at school, fired from a job, or felt rejected and even humiliated in the course of romantic pursuits.
People seem not to see that their opinion of the world
is also a confession of character.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Or, you may trust that the Universe is benevolent and orderly, that most people are compassionate and good-hearted, that every day offers countless opportunities to celebrate life and extend kindness to others.
The most fundamental question we can ever ask
ourselves is whether or not the universe we live in is
friendly or hostile.
Albert Einstein
Each of these outlooks will attract the people, situations, and events that reinforce the worldview of the person doing the attracting.
The only reason the same thing keeps happening is
that you keep focusing on what happened.
Alan Cohen
What’s more, each occurrence will strengthen that person’s beliefs, thereby providing even more “proof” that the way they perceive the world is the way the world actually is.
Man’s mind is a mirror of a universe that mirrors man’s
mind.
Joseph Chilton Pearce
Their core beliefs will always be perpetuated because people tend to “see” only what they believe and are comfortable with.
Everyone hears only what he understands.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Indeed, when two people with opposing viewpoints witness the same event, they will often interpret it in opposite ways to make it fit their preconceived notions.
Life is what we make it, and the world is what we make
it. The eyes of the cheerful and of the melancholy man
are fixed upon the same creation; but very different are
the aspects which it bears to them.
Albert Pike
Many of us cling ferociously to our worldview because our very identity—how we think, act, and relate to others—is built on the foundation of how we think the world works. Any evidence to the contrary must therefore be sacrificed on the altar of self-preservation.
Once someone is sure that the way in which he or she
sees the world is the way things are, then he or she
perceives any differences of opinion as threatening.
This results in a closed system and a rigid approach
to life in which all differences must be discounted,
disparaged, or destroyed.
Anne Wilson Schaef
When belief hardens into certainty and perception is mistaken for fact, it is only natural to conclude that any reasonable person would agree with our assessment.
What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves
think, we imagine others think also.
Julius Caesar
Those who stridently proclaim that their way is the right and only way are most in need of introspection and least likely to pursue it.
Some not only have closed their minds to new truth,
but they sit on the lid.
Dale Turner
The gates of wisdom will forever remain locked and bolted to those who brashly assume that only they have been issued the key.
Many men would have attained to wisdom had they not
supposed they had already done so.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
You live more consciously as soon as you recognize that your perception of reality is uniquely yours, that the world you live in has a population of one.
Each of us makes his own weather, determines the color
of the skies in the emotional universe which he inhabits.
Fulton J. Sheen
July 6, 2013 at 1:29 PM
I like Jenna’s post. It’s true, and I don’t know if this is the way life is meant to be, or if this is the way we have made it.
Relationships between people are messed up to the core, and behaviour modification is really only a feeble attempt at bringing it up to the surface. Men are either too lazy or too scared, women either too influenced, too self-protective or both.
I’d say the best strategy is to just allow yourself to be vulnerable. Just being completely real. The women I’ve fallen in love with in my past opened up their core self to me, and allowed me to do the same back to them. Now, I just do it with everyone and I detach myself from their response.
It was a big realization when I went out on a first date with my previous girlfriend a few years ago. I don’t know how it happened, maybe it was the alcohol, but she started telling me about her childhood and her abusive father, completely naked soul. In response, I opened up and become vulnerable towards her. I went back home with this massive rush of hormones, emotions that lasted for weeks.
That was RAW communication. No bull, no techniques, no laziness, no artificial self-protecting, no trying-to-seem-cool, no social influence, just two people connecting.
Sometimes the other person won’t open up back, but man, when both people are in the mix, that is the best feeling on Earth.
July 7, 2013 at 8:37 AM
Quite true, Steve. Being completely and utterly authentic with everyone and remaining unattached to how they respond is perhaps the wisest advice anyone’s offered on this post. I can attest to the value of living this way. When you commit to being real with everyone in all circumstances, you are liberated from the prison of other people’s expectations and judgments. Any concerns over whether others like or respect you drop away, freeing you up to be more authentic, transparent, and loving . . . which leads to other people liking and respecting you.
True, there will be people who will not respond positively, but so what? You discovered that when someone does respond in kind, the bond you forge is electrifying and the relationships you value develop more emotional depth.
Very glad to hear that you’re living so authentically!
July 22, 2013 at 3:13 PM
“While it’s true that men may be skilled at saying what they think a woman wants to hear, I contend that a mature, savvy woman should be able to weed out such transparently inauthentic sweet-talkers through in-depth, emotionally intimate conversation. There’s a huge difference between saying something because you think a woman wants to hear it and saying it because that’s who you authentically are.”
I assure you, Phil, that I am a mature, savvy woman who left behind the idea of being swept off my feet a very long time ago, I am very self-aware, strong, compassionate to both the other and myself, and definitely not stupid. I hate to burst this bubble that smart women are somehow impervious to lying men, but there are men out there who come across as the most sincere, protective, sensitive, loving, “best friend” kind of guys – who end up, after 4 years, informing you via email that they have found someone else. On CHRISTMAS EVE. This actually happened. So, I will sum this up by saying what I believe is true about dating and “love” – it’s a crap shoot. Some are lucky, some are not. I think the best thing for women to do is immerse themselves in something else they love to DO – like painting, or gardening or hiking or whatever, and just pour your heart into THAT and stop looking. Just stop. You will feel better, you will be productive, you will be absorbed in doing something that makes you happy and will therefore be – happy. And if some guy comes along, you can then decide whether you want to allow him to mess it all up or not. LOL
July 22, 2013 at 4:30 PM
LM, I was referring to weeding out the inauthentic sweet-talkers right up front. But yes, once you get past that point and start a relationship, all bets are off. While there are always two sides to every story, there’s no question that some men are quite skilled at leading women on—even for years—only to bolt when “something better” comes along. I’m sorry you had to suffer through that experience.
Your advice to women about following their bliss is excellent. There comes a point for many women AND men where they’re quite comfortable with who they are and what their life is like, and are only willing to consider a relationship if it promises to be A+. That’s a nice place to live!
July 22, 2013 at 5:02 PM
I would say one should just stay in the present moment. At the beginning of the relationship you have that mixed feeling of lust and reprimanded love which then evolves into passion, which is brought down by jealousy and eventually ends up in boredom of one another. If you are lucky, you just seal the deal with a ring, and you stay friends, at least compared to what once was. If you are not so lucky, one person gets fed up and seeks the burnt-out passion elsewhere, even if they are not brave enough to face
this in person and not over email.
I take relationships day by day. If you are staring into a girl’s eyes, especially one that you love, during a cold winter date, you live the emotions in the moment. If that girl disappears into the night and is never to be seen again, those emotions were still there, they were lived fully, and they were still worth it.
July 22, 2013 at 5:15 PM
Yes, moments like that are certainly worth the emotional investment, Steve. But I hope you’re not saying that the arc of a typical relationship always culminates in jealousy and boredom. That’s certainly not the case!
July 22, 2013 at 5:27 PM
I wouldn’t say always, but many times the relationships that do fail just do so out of a flame that has burnt out. What I meant to say is that if you take the emotions as they come, without worrying about the future and living in the present, you get the best out of the flame. If, for whatever reason, the flame goes out, it shouldn’t be a reason for regretting a relationship, as the moments lived were lived fully and happily.
August 8, 2013 at 2:42 PM
While reading through these threads, I would love to be the free floating woman who can just ignore a guy for days/weeks after a great date or non-responsiveness from him. Perhaps it’s due to my RL’s in my college years and the subconscious effect they’ve had on me…
I find I’m in my early 30s, have a very successful career making well into the 6 figures with a great education, gifted by god with a great physical appearance, and take excellent care of my fitness. Yet when it comes to men, I’m either told by my friends that I’m “unapproachable because most men think they have zero shot”, hence I don’t really get hit on by guys in all reality and just started seeing a guy after 4 yrs of solitude. Part of that 4 yr hiatus could be that I’m so scared of getting hurt. I’ve only ever said those 3 little words once in my life (I myself find it weird I don’t say it to family or friends, I think because I’ve been deeply hurt by those categories in my life as well).
Anyway, I had a blind date set up by my realtor recently that went really well. I actually liked the guy, and I failed to mention earlier I’m EXTREMELY picky (but I’m just generally picky, I know what I like and have the means to acquire whatever that is… Ranging from food, handbags, jewelry, cars, etc). This guy fit the mold almost perfectly, except for a nagging intuition that he harbored ill feelings towards his ex and I question his self esteem as he claims to be perfect at everything (yes, he’s 4 yrs younger than me). Our first date was perfect, a nice restaurant which we closed down after 4 hours and only 2 drinks each because we were so busy talking, followed by the same behavior at another bar, same thing 2 beers each over the course of 3 hours. We live in the same building, which admittedly is why I tried to not allow for the end of the date kiss. Once back up in my condo I had sleeping issues and he had texted that he had a great time and would like to see me again. I replied saying I was watching a movie cos its hard for me to fall asleep and if he couldn’t either, he was welcome to join. I was in sweats, no makeup, hair in a ponytail, nothing sexy about it. We eventually fell asleep, I woke up and saw the light next to him was still on so tries to quietly reach across to shut it off… That’s when it happened, he grabbed me and gave me the most amazing kiss, which led to amazing sex. After 4 yrs of no activity (and I never got the “taking care of myself thing”) I was pretty blown away. The next morning, we went to brunch and spent the entire day at an outside restaurant, talking and drinking beer. He went out with his friends that night, he had just moved into town a couple days before, and I went out with my friends. We spent the next week basically inseparable. Then he went on a month long trip, which I restrained myself from contacting him in any way during his trip as it was his “bro time” prior to re-engaging in the corporate world. The day he got back, he texted me to go to the pool the next day but then later that night enticed me with drinks and dancing and bringing my friends over to his place for a post night out get together. Ineviditably we hooked up, again he swept me off my feet.
Social media being what it is, I found some pics on his FB account with a certain girl “friend” that were a bit suggestive. I’m quickly feeling that all I am to him is a sex object… As I have been with just about every man since college. I’m always the girl they want to hook up with but not introduce to his friends or take out beyond the first or second date. I’ve found myself asking him to do things outside if the building we live in and after the third (ok, honestly 5th time) am forcing myself to not initiate contact or invite him to anything. In fact, I’ve just deleted his contact info, all texts, and the FB app from my phone (common practice I do when I find myself in these situations) so I have no way of contacting him first, particularly after a few drinks ;)
He is the third guy in a string over the last 5 yrs that I meet, they are in town for a week or 2, then have to go on a trip for 4-6 weeks (or in one case move), then they get back and I feel like things have changed. I feel extremely disappointed and frankly crushed because I thought this guy actually saw me for something aside from a sex object, like an actual human with feelings. I’m starting to see now, that’s not the case.
I’m not the needy girl, I abide by “give the guy as much rope as possible, never tell him what or what not to do (like dont go out with your friends tonight, stay with me, or send constant texts) and if he chooses to hook up with another girl, breaking the rope if you will, then let them go. At my age, I’m finding it more and more difficult to find a guy I’m actually interested in (I was frankly shocked when I found this one). But I’m being to feel used, taken for granted, like a piece of trash.
I have a burning question for him regarding the ex, who btw lives across the street from us… Why the hostile tone? I’m never the girl to ask what the guy wants from this, usually because it can scare them as I too get scared to answer that question.
My larger point for this terribly long post is why is it that every guy I’ve ever “dated” besides my ex see me as a sex object? I’m a successful business and social woman who is attractive, but the loneliness kills me. I work in a male dominated industry and have heard how men talk to each other, while i dint approve because im in sales, i somewhat have to partake in order not to be looked at as the “frigid woman”. This guy appeared to actually be a nice guy, something I was determined didn’t exist… A nice guy who’s hot and I’m actually attracted to (again I’m in sales, I’m competitive, the nice guys usually send me running for the hills).
HELP!:o
August 10, 2013 at 3:11 PM
I’m very sorry to hear of your heartbreaking encounters with men, Sarah. Unfortunately, your experiences are entirely consistent with the points made in this post.
September 12, 2013 at 11:52 AM
Hey Phil, ive got to say you are truly one of the most socially “in touch” guys on the net.
I want to ask why alot (not all) of attractive/good looking women are attracted to and stay with guys who treat them like crap and use them.Do they have some sort of psychological issue? Your opinion on this would be great.
Thanks.
September 12, 2013 at 12:01 PM
Hi, Ian. I have no idea why so many women stay with men who mistreat them. That’s a whole different topic that’s worth exploring but is beyond the scope of this particular post.
September 22, 2013 at 3:32 PM
Phil, been reading this with interest, and I have many issues around the whole dating scene myself and many things I could say, almost all from experience, usually negative experiences. I may add, I am British too/English whatever, but from reading some of the things on here, the statements seem to tally almost completely with what people would say in my country too.
First off, there are so many misunderstandings between men and women, in the very area where we need love, acceptance and to want to have intimate relationships, not just physically intimate, but intimacy in the sense of being able to share deep feelings and interests and opinions, we find that it is the hardest thing in the world. Becoming president of the US seems a doddle by comparison!
Beautiful women are people too! There, I’ve said it. And people are illogical, contradictory, change their minds, and are full of uncertainties everywhere. Someone attractive may exude confidence, but this is just perception and not much more. Some beautiful women are not nice people, some are lovely people, and some are like many of us, just nice when they want to be and not when they can’t be bothered. And beautiful women will invariably get hit on by players who see them as a conquest to brag to their mates (friends) about, and decent ordinary guys, even attractive ones, will just think as many of us do, that she is not interested anyway, so we don’t bother. Then when you are in a pub, club, college or even supermarket and a pretty woman smiles at you or stares at you or makes it obvious she is interested in some way, you are used to being rejected anyway and think it’s another female game of some kind, when it may not be.
In the UK at least, there is an unwritten rule that men make the first move, almost always. So even if the woman likes you, she won’t hit on you. This means that women have the upper hand, and sometimes when you make a move, a woman can make a fool of you, or be offensive or curse at you or just laugh in your face and tell their friends! Not very nice for anyone to be honest. And I am speaking of experience here. This means that often men, who get too many of these types of rejections, also get jaded with the whole thing and somehow something inside switches off, and you see all women as hostile and men haters. I did for a long time and coming to terms with it. I have lots of platonic female friends too, so that is a blessing. That is also something to think about here too.
Outside of these forums, no one speaks openly about these things, especially men; women can hate men and it is acceptable. Men who complain about this are seen as losers who just can’t find a woman and so won’t talk about it, men have to be big and brave and strong and macho, even when we want to cry because of all the grief and bitterness we feel about this issue too. I have cried before today because of this.
If you want, check out my blog; I am in the process of writing a piece about this topic or related anyway, called ‘The Nice Guy’. It may give women a much needed perspective on the way decent men feel about the whole dating scene, although of course it is only my personal perspective.
September 22, 2013 at 5:44 PM
Thank you for your open, honest reply and for willing to be vulnerable, Tim. Yes, your experiences are consistent with those of many men, which is why so many men are gun shy about approaching women, beautiful or not. As a man, I’ve discovered that many women have never thought about the courage it takes for a man to ask a woman out and the rejection that he often has to deal with as a result. Many women think, “Hey, what’s the big deal? Be a man and ask her out.” Umm, no, it’s not that easy or that simple. I’m sorry you’ve felt such grief over this, Tim. I wish you luck in finding someone who is right for you. And please stop by again and post the link to your article when you’re done with it.
September 23, 2013 at 8:44 AM
Dear Mr. Childs,
I read your post, and as a woman, I must respectfully disagree with your statement that women have the upper hand when it comes to dating. Because, as you stated, women typically must wait to be invited out on a date with a gentleman. That gives gentlemen the upper hand simply because we ladies suffer severe disappointment when the guy we’re crushing on completely overlooks us, even when he knows how we feel about him, which leads to our humiliation. Thus I can understand the embarrassment a man can feel when turned down by a lady. However, I would offer this simple advice for coping. If you ask a lady out on a date and she declines, but not in a kind or respectful manner, consider it good luck that you learned early that she is not really a beautiful person, she just looks that way! Afterall, once her physical beauty fades, her inner beauty or ugliness is what you’ll end up with in the long run. I would offer the ladies the same advice on the flip side. Thus we should all be honing our character radar whether we’re searching for love, friendship, mentors, employers, etc. So be confident when you ask a beautiful lady out on a date, if she’s not graceful in her response, move on and be glad you’ve just dodged a bullet!
September 23, 2013 at 9:22 AM
Good points, Wendywu, with one possible exception. You wrote that a guy will overlook a girl “even when he knows how we feel about him.” Based on my experience and my conversations with many women, i can assure you that when a woman is absolutely certain that a guy knows she’s interested, the odds my be only 50-50 that the guy has a clue. In fact, it’s often downright laughable that women think the “signals” she’s sent are a clear indication of her feelings. It’s just another example of the different languages spoken by men and women. Personally, I’ve been certain a number of times about a woman’s intentions because of the signals she’s sent . . . and I’ve pretty much been wrong every time. If a woman wants a guy to know she’s interested in him, do not assume that signals will get the job done. The ONLY way to be sure is to tell him in clear, direct language.
September 23, 2013 at 10:01 AM
That’s a good point, and I’ve probably been guilty of mistakenly thinking that my signals were adequate, much to my disappointment. Moreover, I must admit, I have also been guilty of judging a man solely on his looks, but I was young and naïve and learned that lesson the hard way. However, I must qualify that mistake by adding that nearly every man to whom I’ve found myself attracted was handsome to me but not in society’s classical sense. They always had some charming physical imperfection that I thought made them stand out from the perfectly handsome gentlemen; but it was their inner character that made me love them! ; )
September 23, 2013 at 10:27 AM
Yes, ultimately we have to be attracted to the person we are in a relationship with, but thank God that so many of us are open to being attracted to someone who’s not “classically beautiful.” Otherwise, there would be very few relationships!
September 23, 2013 at 10:54 AM
So true Phil! I’m thankful for this article and all of the posts. It has been educational for me because it inspired me to read up on the dance of love and how it relates to my personal experiences. I was raised up in an abusive household and was taught to believe that I was ugly and stupid and no one would ever love me. For that reason, I spent my early adult years trying to prove them wrong. Long story short; I learned the meaning of the phrase, “Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.” While some gentlemen prefer blondes, those who prefer dark hair, brown eyes, and olive skin may not find me to be beautiful, but certainly seem to find me attractive. In retrospect, I wish I would have known that much sooner. I would have worked on my inner beauty as earnestly as I fussed with my physical beauty. Oh well, we live and learn! Meanwhile, it took me a long time to be able to see myself as beautiful at all; physically and internally. So kudos to the men who saw my beauty even when I could not! God bless them all!
September 23, 2013 at 4:50 PM
I’m so sorry to hear about your difficult childhood, Wendywu, but it’s awesome to see how far you’ve come! Bravo!
September 24, 2013 at 10:05 AM
Most of the time, a woman will decline a man’s invitation out of a lack of attraction and closeness. The “quality” of a man really only has to do with the way he interacts with the woman, the emotions he makes her feel, which is the reason why women will find that they have been attracted to many physical prototypes of men. A woman could call a man 10/10 physically after two or three conversations when, if shown a photograph beforehand she might have rated him a 4. This is where it is really really different to men, who are far more visual.
She also has to feel safe, and close, which is why it is understandable a woman would decline a date from a stranger, no matter how attractive he were to her. I always say that a 20 minute beer does charms for getting a woman out on a proper date.
Women will not ask men out, that is the way biology has dealt us the cards and men must accept it. Complaining about this is like complaining about having two instead of three eyes. Yes, rejection does hurt, and approaching women is probably the most emotionally straining things there is for a man. I had a friend who fought in Afganistan, and yet he was scared of approaching women. For most men, it is a feeling of extreme panic, more so the more beautiful the woman.
The only solution for this is desensitizing yourself through experience. 10 approaches, 100, 1000 or however many you need. This goes back to the point Phil made about beautiful women dealing primarily with players, because a man who CAN approach her is one that has approached thousands of women before.
I noticed attractive women respond particularly well to nervous men, so feeling the fear, doing it anyway, and actually stating you are nervous can do a lot.
September 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM
Hi, Steve. You have good insights and instincts, although I would never recommend to any man that he approach 1,000 women! Even 100 seems to be pushing it in my view. But if that’s what it takes for a guy to get comfortable talking to women while still remaining authentic and retaining his honorable intentions, so be it. I wrote this post to encourage men who are seeking to be in a relationship, not guys who are more interested in quantity than quality. Actually, I think we’re on the same page here but I wanted to make this clear.
September 24, 2013 at 3:53 PM
Hi Phil, my post is up and running. It’s kind of related to this post but more about dating from a bloke’s perspective. I hope people understand that it is written from personal experience. I have no axe to grind against women, some of my very best friends are indeed of the opposite sex!
Steve is right. In an ideal world we’d all be nice to each other and women would see the error of their ways and make the first move, and men would stop being players and etc. But, back on planet earth, we have to accept certain things are just the way they are.
Wendy is right, but all this giving out signals stuff is seriously weird to all the men I’ve ever talked to; I get the feeling a woman is furiously trying to send telepathic signals to a man ‘please talk to me, please notice me and say hello!’ Most men are oblivious to this. I now smile at someone and if they smile back, that’s a start. If there is no response after you smile, just a blank look or a turning away, that to most men signals ‘not interested’. Perhaps women should use semaphore, those flags that people use from far away to let us men know they are interested?! hey, you know what, why don’t they, once in a blue moon, actually smile and say hello?! I think if you have to approach someone, in any situation, be it for a job, help or advice, even making a friend at college etc, the inference is always going to be that you lowered yourself in some way to receive whatever treatment that person metes out to you. You are in their personal space after all, and invading it. That means to me, that women generally always have the power in that situation, because you want something from that person, and that person may or not withhold it; that is a form of power whichever way you look at it. And unfortunately, maybe Wendy says that men may know a woman likes them but won’t talk, but truth to tell every man has had to deal with that situation countless times anyway so they are not going to feel remorse over it one iota.
May I add to Wendy; yeah agreed! If someone is horrible when you politely approach them, then it’s a cinch they aren’t that nice anyway. Of course, they could have got out the wrong side of the bed that morning… or they could indeed be horrible old buggers! And there’s a few of them knocking around here and there… both of the male and female variety!
Here’s the blog link http://tchildschristianityblog.blogspot.co.uk/ if anyone is remotely interested that is.
September 24, 2013 at 4:27 PM
Thanks for your comments, Tim. I think one of the greatest stumbling blocks to men and women getting together is a woman’s belief that the man she’s sending signals to is not only picking up on those signals but understands them clearly and precisely. Oh, if only life were that simple! In reality, women are speaking a language that the vast majority of men are unfamiliar with.
The other thing is that, when it comes to making initial contact, women think men have all the power, but men know that women have all the power. Once a woman wakes up to this realization, she will undoubtedly have more pleasant experiences and successful outcomes.
Thanks for the link to your post. I’ll check it out.
September 24, 2013 at 5:50 PM
Yes, unfortunately, we ladies get a lot of well intended but bad advice about how to attract a guy we may have a crush on. It starts around about middle-high school, but that advice may not mature and grow more sophisticated as we and our lives do. Perhaps some better advice would be how to evaluate then gentlemen who do approach us in the first place. I think there’s a good chance we may be pleasantly surprised even if a permanent relationship doesn’t ultimately develop. Which leads to another piece of good advice; don’t try to control, or put too much stock in the outcome. Good relationships must have time to develop naturally without a lot of pressure and expectations.
September 24, 2013 at 5:51 PM
*nods in agreement*
September 25, 2013 at 6:11 AM
Everyone makes mistakes, but the problem comes when the other sex doesn’t perceive them as mistakes. I noticed a trend in the US where a woman’s idea of flirting is reduced to wierd forms of “pushing”. I noticed sometimes women would outright insult the men they liked and perhaps thought they were flirting.
On the other extreme you have men trying to act the “alpha” macho role. These are just cultural messups… People in the US and Western Europe have forgotten how to take part in the seduction dance.
September 25, 2013 at 11:29 AM
You touched upon a key element, Steve. Many men lack the seduction gene, and couldn’t seduce a lamp post if their life depended on it. So for those women who want to be wined and dined and romanced (which is pretty much all of them, which is totally understandable), there’s a big disconnect with this large segment of seduction-challenged men.
September 27, 2013 at 2:52 PM
I also believe that when we make too many demands, in our own minds, of the type of person we really want, especially the image we might have in our mind’s eye of the perfect partner, fantastic looking, funny, sexy, just the right height, the personality that complements us exactly and so on, we actually make it worse. Having a ‘type’ may be a big problem, and also expecting someone to be perfect, when no one is. And if we want the perfect soulmate, we have to remember that we also have to be the perfect soulmate that someone is looking for! Being too picky is perhaps another reason why many of us flounder in the unhappy kingdom of singledom, ruled by the Wicked witch!
Seriously, there is so much ego attached to being open to loving someone, being rejected, being accepted, not being used and all the uncertainties that are involved that something that should be, and is, of utmost importance becomes very stressful. Women reject men, men get fed up, switch off and the end result is everyone’s filled with mixed emotions and bitter experiences. Then the whole pub/club scene, the cattlemarket as we call it here, where like our whole society, the best looking or the richest get the first pick and everyone else who isn’t perfect or super successful gets relegated to 2nd or 3rd place. Of course then love is relegated to last place too, where men want a trophy girlfriend, a good breeder who’ll smile at the right time, and the women want the man with money and success. Doesn’t have much to do with love. Where that leaves those who desire a loving, fulfilling relationship I don’t know, but finding love in many of those places is like finding good conversation in Yahoo! chatrooms.
I’m a reasonably good looking bloke, although not the all American beefcake blonde hair blue eyes look, and agree with Steve that when women do actually talk to you, they can actually be offensive to you, to get a reaction, and if that happened to me in the past, I would take it personally and start arguing back, ending of course in nastiness and unpleasantness all around.
I came to love late, mid 20s for a first proper girlfriend and then things changed, but I still struggle with my feelings on this issue, I believe many people do. It’s such a big topic that gets overlooked somehow.
September 27, 2013 at 3:41 PM
Yes, Tim, love often gets overlooked because, as Nathaniel Branden wrote, “Love is for people who know who they are.” As people age and mature, odds improve that they will be more open to looking for and offering love, as opposed to unconsciously just satisfying their own ego and needs. Ah, but when you do find the right person, the wait is always worth it.
September 28, 2013 at 6:04 AM
If you have to wait Phil, you might as well be gracious about it hey? If you get miserable and unhappy because you can’t find a partner, that will very probably show in your face and your personality and you’ll drive people away from you anyway. I find that if I dress well, try to look the best I can and appear happy and confident, I feel better anyway. Trying to push fate, trying to control something you really have no great control over, is possibly the wrong way to go. And of course, many men do indeed end up in relationships with attractive women because they have ‘the gift of the gab’ (sweet talkers) but somewhere down the line, even a silver tongue is often not enough; people get married on an infatuation, or because someone is a ‘good prospect’ or because someone has money or from a good family; all these things may be good, but without love at the centre, plainly put if you don’t love that person intensely and have deep affection for them and vice versa, money or anything else will not sustain a relationship or a loving fulfilled marriage. And even beauty or handsome looks fade when the person inside may be shallow or have no real interests or you have to keep stroking their ego and telling them how wonderful they are, can get tiring eventually.
Without love, for friends, family and partners, we could not live together. And certainly in the case of relationships and marriages where we actively choose to be with someone and they likewise. In short, when society’s priorities are in many ways wrong, many people in society will have skewed priorities as well.
September 28, 2013 at 6:14 AM
Quite true, Tim. What you described at the start about driving people away is the basis for the saying, We create our own reality. People who are miserable find all the evidence they need to reinforce their view that the world is a miserable place. Yet people who are loving and kind and positive find all the evidence they need to reinforce their view as well.
You also made an excellent point about skewed priorities. Given that it’s such a huge societal problem, it’s no wonder that so many individuals are priority-challenged.
September 28, 2013 at 6:19 AM
I think Tim really did provide a moment of clarity. Nobody is perfect, and when we expect perfection from the opposite sex, we will be terribly disappointed. I have struggled with this in the past, but I believe that when you forgive mistakes at the beginning, over time your biology does the work for you and you fall in love.
Being in love is a fantanstic feeling, probably the greatest on Earth. It is a pity to pass by that out of a feeling of aesthetic or material elitism. If your partner has a quirk, embrace it as a quirk instead of judging it.
I don’t think it’s in your control how the other person responds to you, but what IS in control is your emotional self. If you allow yourself to be vulnerable and fall in love, it doesn’t matter if the other person stays or leaves… What matters is the fact you have just experienced one of the most beautiful feelings life has to offer.
September 28, 2013 at 3:16 PM
*nods* Kahlil Gibran said it best, Steve:
When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
September 29, 2013 at 11:54 AM
Hello! I left some comments before and wanted to come back to update you, for what it’s worth. I’m one of those pretty lonely women and I’ve decided to just work on myself and not talk about all the jerks I inevitably encounter. I happened to come upon 2 books: “The Mastery of Love” and the French book “The Man Who Wanted To Be Happy” (original French title: “L’Homme qui voulait etre heureux”). Then I finally gave in and watched “The Secret,” which a friend had suggested (with a little warning about the whole “make millions” message).
Well, these 3 works have the same message: love yourself and “take care of your half of the relationship” (“Mastery of Love”), and the rest will fall into place. I do see that Steve shares the same message 2 comments above. We can’t control what others do/feel/think but we can control the way we do these things.
I was (still am a tad little bit) hung up on a guy I’d met who always made me feel like I was walking on eggs when chatting with him and who I felt had hurt my feelings and made me cry and feel insignificant. Despite all this I still thought the guy was the best thing to ever happened to me and kept putting up with his crap till he finally just disappeared.
That’s when I told myself, “ENOUGH! Why can’t I be alone and enjoy ME?! It’s better to be alone than put up with crap from some jerk.” And that’s when I happened to come upon the books and decided to watch the movie. I figured only good things could come out of taking better care of myself and telling myself that I love me just the way I am – even if like everyone else I’m imperfect. For a few weeks I wrote down 3 things I liked about me every day and I’ve totally gone back to scrubbing my feet and doing my nails once a week as well as hanging out “with” myself (in the park, in a cafe, wherever).
Instead of focusing on what I don’t want I’ve been focusing on what I DO want. I feel better about myself and it feels easier to say “no” to jerks, though I’m finding I’m interacting with a different type of man now. Anyway, one of these days I’ll tell you more but wanted to share this :)
September 29, 2013 at 6:43 PM
Good for you, Jenna. Thanks for the update. It’s true that you dramatically improve the odds of meeting your soulmate when you stop trying to find the right person and start trying to be the right person.
September 30, 2013 at 6:00 AM
‘…stop trying to find the right person and start trying to be the right person.’ That about says it all, for men and women.
September 30, 2013 at 8:37 AM
Yep.
October 11, 2013 at 10:45 AM
Hi….
Well, since my last post it has happened again. A guy approached me timidly…I was interested and told him so…and he soon started hinting that he felt that I was too good for him. That progressed to comments about how I need a “rich, handsome” man etc. I don’t think he could believe that the attraction was mutual. Nothing happened between us and it didn’t take long before he disappeared. I made one brief attempt at contacting him but he didn’t respond. I won’t try again. I’m pretty heartbroken over it.
My friends all tell me that these guys think they’re out of my league and that this is what’s going on. I think that’s crazy. I like who I like and many times it’s not the most handsome face in the room. I have a male friend who is model handsome and I’m not attracted to him. Attraction for me is about more than physical appearance. However, men don’t seem to understand that. This guy didn’t anyway.
October 11, 2013 at 3:32 PM
I’m sorry to hear this, Elizabeth. It’s one thing to feel intimidated by a beautiful woman. It’s another to be so timid as to be completely lacking in self-confidence. it’s a fine line and it’s too bad that this guy ended up on the wrong side of it.
October 12, 2013 at 10:22 AM
That is the curse of the attractive woman. The only man she can really have is the one that is going to leave quickly anyway. Finding a good guy that doesn’t believe in this whole league business is difficult. But, blame society. We all see models on TV dating athletes and billionaires… The thing we don’t realize is that only a very small percentage of attractive women live in this world.
Men extrapolate all of that to real life, which is a shame.
October 12, 2013 at 10:24 AM
Well, I wouldn’t make it sound so absolute, Steve. There are plenty of beautiful women who have found good guys. It’s just a lot more challenging than it should be.
October 16, 2013 at 3:29 PM
Hey Steve, some of your comments on this blog have really got me thinking.
Is it honestly true that alot of the beautiful women you have spoken to have never truly connected with anyone? I find that really hard to believe.
I always look at a pretty girl and think “she looks like a nice person” but then think “she”s too good for me or would laugh at me for trying to talk to her”. I never try talking to them because of this.
You obviously have alot of experience in this, so is it definitely true that beautiful women don’t get approached by decent guys.
Your opinion on this would be great. Thanks.
October 16, 2013 at 3:35 PM
Thanks for your comment, Ian. You’re living proof of the truth of this post. I’m sure Steve will contribute his thoughts.
October 16, 2013 at 4:03 PM
In fact, scientific studies have shown fashion models feel more lonely and disconnected than most women. The research was done on models, but the same can be said of non-modelling attractive females.
Here is the point: What does it mean when a woman says she is lonely? It means that women don’t give her the time of day out of envy, and that the few men that talk to her do so in a way so artificial she is unable to connect with any of them.
I believe that for a woman to want to go out with a man, she must be both attracted and connected to him, but it is crucial to understand that this “attraction” part has very little, if anything, to do with your physique. For a woman, and especially for an attractive woman, an attractive man is so in virtue of the way he behaves. The attractive man might even be ugly, but the woman creates an “attractive mental image” of him, so to speak. This is why men are lucky, they can become attractive. Women are not so lucky, they either are or they’re not.
I would say it could be argued that seducing an attractive female is somewhat easier than a less attractive one. The less attractive one knows men, and she has far more genuine romantic proposals than the attractive one does.
The key is that, no matter how lonely an attractive woman is, any artificiality will put her off from speaking to you, as she relates that artificiality to her past experiences: Men who saw her more as a status symbol, than as a person.
Imagine you were an attractive female, and an artificial man came along, trying to seek your approval, treating you differently because you are attractive, sucking up to you… And you can smell he doesn’t even like you, he just wants the status. Sounds cool, maybe for a short time, but have this happen all throughout your life and you will want to pull your eyeballs out.
The key, then, is naturality. If you can be natural with these women, you are in an entirely different league, one most men will never get into. This means not seeking her approval, teasing her like a little sister, not being afraid of disagreeing with her, pointing out the things about her you like, as well as those you don’t… They key word is “natural”. You shouldn’t be going out of your way to disagree with her, but if there is something you disagree with, then you go ahead and disagree, like with a little sister. Your body language should be relaxed, don’t alter it like you would with a boss. Your eye contact should be strong, but again, not forced: natural. It’s just not a big deal. The thing to remember is: she is just a girl, nothing more, nothing less. A girl, not some strange being. Don’t smile and nod like you would to your boss, the idea is to treat her like you would your best friend. No distance, just vibing like old pals.
Your self-esteem should not come from her response to you, but from your own core. You are the man, the rock, and you are bringing her into your reality, not the other way around, like all great lovers do.
These are human beings above all. They are not barbie-dolls, they have the same emotions as you and I, they like sex as much as you and I, and they want to connect with others as much as you and I.
You speak of “elitism”. You think of the attractive woman as a devil that is out to reject you. This is a wrong attitude. She is a normal girl, and she will reject you only if you give her a reason to. This is more of a “cause-effect” thing than anything else. If you approach, all she goes by is your approach. If it didn’t work, your approach wasn’t that great, so change it. She won’t “laugh” at you, she wants to be approached, but she wants to be approached by a good man that will treat her the way she wants to be treated: not like a princess, but like a human being.
The way you would date a less attractive girl is exactly the way you would an attractive one. The only difference is your response to the girl. If you believe she is some “elitist”, she will pick that up. If you are comfortable with her, she will be so with you.
The beautiful thing is, if you can treat this girl like a human being, she will be eternally grateful to you. Don’t expect ease from the beginning, as these girls are naturally suspicious of men due to all their bad experiences, but once you show your qualities, you should see them opening up like flowers.
It is so rare that man treat this girl normally, that when he comes along, she will be in heaven.
October 16, 2013 at 4:09 PM
Nice analysis, Steve. From my own experience, your observations about things like acting natural and good-naturedly teasing a woman are spot on. I’d love to hear some women give their thoughts on this.
October 16, 2013 at 9:00 PM
Steve said: “I believe that for a woman to want to go out with a man, she must be both attracted and connected to him, but it is crucial to understand that this “attraction” part has very little, if anything, to do with your physique. For a woman, and especially for an attractive woman, an attractive man is so in virtue of the way he behaves. The attractive man might even be ugly, but the woman creates an “attractive mental image” of him, so to speak. This is why men are lucky, they can become attractive. Women are not so lucky, they either are or they’re not.”
*****
That is very, very true, Steve. Attraction for me is about A LOT more than a man’s physical appearance.
October 16, 2013 at 9:15 PM
That’s encouraging to hear, Elizabeth. And it gives hope to men everywhere!
October 16, 2013 at 9:19 PM
Steve said: “Imagine you were an attractive female, and an artificial man came along, trying to seek your approval, treating you differently because you are attractive, sucking up to you… And you can smell he doesn’t even like you, he just wants the status. Sounds cool, maybe for a short time, but have this happen all throughout your life and you will want to pull your eyeballs out.”
*****
Hmmm…
I don’t think I’ve ever felt that a man was trying to gain status by being seen with me. If I sense that a man doesn’t genuinely like me I don’t like him back. So, such men wouldn’t even make it to a first date with me.
The very, very few men who are genuinely interested in me rarely seem to have the guts to pursue me. I can easily spot their interest and I can always tell that it’s genuine. However, they will usually start making comments that tell me that they believe that I’m out of their league. Then, they start backing off.
October 17, 2013 at 5:00 AM
Thanks for chiming in, Elizabeth. I think that no matter how certain men and women think they know what the other gender is thinking or feeling, they’ll never be quite right. Men simply can’t imagine being a woman and having a lifetime of women’s experiences, and vice versa.
October 17, 2013 at 5:33 AM
Phil said: “That’s encouraging to hear, Elizabeth. And it gives hope to men everywhere!”
*******
I hope so.
I can’t speak for all women. However, I think, from what I’ve seen among my female friends, it’s usually true. A man doesn’t have to be classically handsome for women to find him irresistible.
I’ll offer on example: Adrien Brody. He is definitely not what’s considered a classically handsome man. Go read what women say about him though. I don’t know if men would say such things about a woman who was that far off the beauty mark :) I personally find Adrien Brody far more attractive that George Clooney.
October 17, 2013 at 5:35 AM
Nice example, Elizabeth. I wish I had learned this years earlier!
October 17, 2013 at 3:10 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write all of that advice Steve. It really was eye- opening.
I sometimes see girls like the ones you described give me some sort of sign or indication that they want to be approached and spoken to. The thing is, i automatically dismiss it and think “she is probably joking or taking the mick “. I guess that has something to do with the social conditioning that you mentioned in an earlier comment.
If a guy can break out of this state of mind, good things will happen.
This blog has really inspired me to start changing my attitude about this subject ( as Steve said), and to not listen to all of the media rubbish that says “beautiful women are only for good looking rich guys”.
Phil, this blog is a true inspiration to so many guys out there. I will definitely look to buy your books at some point.
October 17, 2013 at 3:42 PM
I’m glad Steve inspired you to make some bold changes, Ian. And thanks for the book mention!
October 17, 2013 at 5:05 PM
Ian,
I wouldn’t be so quick to blame social conditioning or any other third party for that matter. We’re the ones who are choosing to stay in fear (of the unknown, of change, of leaving our comfort zone), and then we rationalize it by putting women down (“they’re snobbish gold diggers who only go for jerks anyway”) so we can feel justified and preserve our egos, since we then don’t have to admit that we’re just scared. We need to be brutally honest about why we’re doing what we’re doing (or not doing in this case) if we expect to change it. Voluntary introspection is the key.
Phil,
Your book is AMAZING! So many deep insights… many of which REALLY hit home on some of the core issues I’m having. Fantastic work! I’m recommending it to everyone I know.
Cheers and apologies for my English.
October 17, 2013 at 5:09 PM
You nailed it, BHS. Plenty of guys do indeed rationalize their insecurities away. Brutally honest introspection is the only way out of that trap.
Wow, thanks so much for the great feedback about the book. I love hearing that people find value in it. If you’d like to offer any more feedback, please e-mail me at philbolsta@mac.com. I’d love to hear from you!
October 19, 2013 at 5:19 AM
– Elizabeth: I would say every man is “attracted” to a beautiful woman. And, in today’s society, where attraction is valued more than connection, I would say the overwhelming majority of men would date such a woman if offered to him on a silver platter. I suppose there may be a very slim minority of men who would subject attractive women to their usual standards of “connecting”, “mutual interests” and “feminitiy”. But, I must emphasize this is a minority of men who have already had their taste of “beauty” and are looking further. I wouldn’t take it as the norm.
Therefore, it is fare to assume most men will be “interested” in you. That interest will stem from attraction and, in rare ocasions may develop into connection if the man and his situation is right. But, believe it or not, status does play in, and more so in the US. It isn’t a conscious factor, but that man always has it lying in his head that a beautiful woman is arm candy. I don’t think he realizes this consciously, he just interprets it as attraction, but it is there and I wouldn’t worry about it. What you should worry about is the smooth player that is consciously looking for the status. These guys are easy to spot, but also be careful because female “intuition” can sometimes weed out the best of men.
– Ian: Think of it this way. Say about 1 in 20 women is particularly attractive. Out of 150 million women in the US alone, that leaves us with 7,5 million very attractive women. Less than 0.1% of those are in industries where they would even come into contact with rich men (modelling and so on). This means that there are many many unapproached attractive girls that couldn’t even think of being invited to some high-end event in Paris. Hence, these girls do not have the mentality of “I’m looking for a millionaire and nothing else goes”. There are many attractive girls, and not so many millionaires. For example, put your modellesque girl into the suburbs of some American town. She has no access to the elite, therefore she is not elitist, yet she doesn’t get approached. The result is an unhappy love life.
She is not out to reject you. In fact, you will probably find she is just as nervous and worried about making a good impression as you are.
– BHS: Ian said “If a guy can break out of this state of mind, good things will happen.” The greatest things happen outside of the comfort zone. Jumping in front of a girl and putting your ego on the line is a terrifying thing. I remember I went out with a guy who had fought in Afganistan who was shaking at the thought of approaching a woman, the more attractive and taller the worse. We shouldn’t rationalize by saying “Oh, she must be busy” or “She must have a boyfriend.” Shut off those inner demons, and while there is a chance of rejection, that’s fine. I’ve been rejected plenty, and the Universe doesn’t care.
October 19, 2013 at 5:28 AM
Good stuff, Steve. Funny how being rejected by women strikes terror into the hearts of so many men who are able to shrug off rejection when it comes to their work or other aspects of their lives. unfortunately, I can relate!
October 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM
Wow, Phil! You’ve answered a question I’ve been asking for quite some time now (and never got a good answer to). I’ve had such a difficult time with this. People always say you attract what you’re putting out there, but I disagree. I’m smart, honest, kind, I really do have a heart for people and yes, I happen to be told that I’m very attractive. So why do I attract very charismatic smooth talkers who fit a lot of the descriptions you detailed above? I consistently deal with men who promise me the world and then never measure up…meaning they end up being total jerks. I don’t need all those promises, why do they do that???
My most recent (and worst) experience was with a man I thought was a true friend. My last boyfriend was not being nice to me at all and we both knew that for religious reasons, we didn’t have a future. When this attractive, kind guy came into the picture and spoke of wanting a future with me, I thought he was the real deal. Let’s call him Mr. Perfect.
I’m very loyal and couldn’t just dump my guy so we stayed friends for 6 months, could talk for hours, and just had a great connection as platonic friends, but we never crossed a line. I refused to cheat. Eventually, after my boyfriend and I finally amicably parted ways, Mr. Perfect and I started dating. I met his parents, everything seemed great, I thought I’d found The One.
WELL, once he had me, the true colors came out pretty early. Turned out he’d been dating another beautiful woman while she had a boyfriend, and once she was single and totally in love with him, he dumped her abruptly and moved on to me as soon as I was single. The poor girl was devastated. At the time, I didn’t know all the details and he convinced me he was just a nice guy who hadn’t known how to break up with her because he didn’t want to hurt her feelings (i know, i know). Still, I had a nagging feeling that he wasn’t so nice because even when he was pursuing me, he was still leading her on.
He asked me to give him another chance and I did. Things were great, then eventually, he picked a fight with me and suddenly he was talking about how things wouldn’t work out. I was blindsided. When I asked why, he gave me a ton of vague excuses that just reeked of dishonesty. We had such a good connection, but suddenly he was talking about how we “weren’t good for each other” and “shouldn’t be together.” I kept blaming myself, wondering what I’d done wrong. I figured I must be pretty horrible if someone could like me for 8 months and then suddenly drop me on my tukus.
Later, I found out that after our first breakup when he was trying to get back together, he’d already invited another girl on our upcoming July vacation. She was also beautiful and also in a relationship. So obviously, if he planned on taking HER on our trip, he had always planned on dumping me, there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. I now saw the pattern: pursue a woman, say whatever you can to make her think he’s serious, then when everything is fine and he’s gotten what he wants, he does all he could to sabotage the relationship and goes chasing someone else.
I didn’t understand why someone would be cruel enough to intentionally hurt people he claimed to care about, but I guess that’s what hunters do. I think a lot of them have low self-esteems and just pursue attractive women to make themselves feel better. When they finally have the attractive woman, two things happen:
-they’re afraid they aren’t good enough to keep her and she’ll eventually realize that she can do better.
-they need the constant assurance that women find them attractive, so once they’ve “conquered” this one beautiful woman by having her agree to date them, they’re on to another.
I don’t know what to do, I’m just terrified to get back out there. Clearly my judgment about men is completely off, I really thought this one was different. If I was wrong about him after being friends so long, I’m convinced I really am just clueless and a jerk magnet. LOL.
Please, any advice, Phil?
October 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM
I’m so sorry to hear you had to go through this, Kristen. I don’t know how guys like that can sleep at night. I’ve known both men and women who are commitment-phobic, but to deliberately be so cruel is inexcusable. i wish I had some great advice for you, but all I can say is continue to be yourself and don’t ever lose hope. This excerpt from Kahlil Gibran says it all:
When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
Kahlil Gibran
October 27, 2013 at 10:45 AM
‘Good stuff, Steve. Funny how being rejected by women strikes terror into the hearts of so many men who are able to shrug off rejection when it comes to their work or other aspects of their lives. unfortunately, I can relate!’
Absolutely. That’s a good point, and as a writer I have had loads of rejections slips and loads of rejected app forms for jobs, but nothing strikes more fear into me than a rejection, the big KB, from a woman! I suppose the difference is though, a person rejecting a book or you for a particular job is rejecting the book and not the person and for the job you might just not have the experience for, but when a woman rejects you, it is YOU and all you are being rejected; that is painful whichever way you look at it. Of course, if this happens in a place you only visit once in a blue moon, it’s no big deal, but if it’s in a college or uni or workplace that you have to keep visiting and seeing the person who rejected you again and again, that obviously is different. Also, in the British pub/club scene, looking for love can be laced with the fact that people are drunk or half-cut, or half stoned or whatever and the atmosphere is superficial at best, and if a woman rejects even a genuine advance from someone when that man is with his friends, that is painful too.
This means that rejection isn’t just something you can always shrug off, and I will honestly say that it has caused me pain before today. I am quite a good looking bloke as well, and do get attention from women wherever I go but that doesn’t count for that much sometimes. I’m a decent bloke too, and I don’t sleep around because I am a Christian. Still this doesn’t seem enough.
October 27, 2013 at 1:25 PM
I think that’s the greatest appeal of online dating, Tim. People can feel each other out and build some degree of intimacy without subjecting themselves to abject humiliation and rejection. It’s no wonder that more than half of relationships today started out online.
November 19, 2013 at 2:13 AM
Hi
I really like your article, so thank you for that. It really describes my situation. I’m in my early 20’s and I’ve never had guys approach me even though my looks ren’t the problem. Last year someone actually aproached me and I thought “finally” someone has the guts to approach a beautiful woman. He turned out to be a hunter, and we broke up because he was still hunting. I should have known because he always called me “hot” :/
I don’t know whether guys are “intimidated” or whether they think I’m superficial, because I’m not. In the end we will live with our partner’s personality and not the looks.
I’m still very frustrated, and I don’t know what to do. I have a lot going on with work and college, so that doesn’t make my situation better. It might scare the guys even more.
I fear I will end up as an old workaholic woman who doesn’t have anything meaningful in her life :(
November 19, 2013 at 6:49 PM
I’m sorry to hear that your experience mirrors that of the women I talk about in the article, Honey. I will echo what other commenters have said on this post: The best way to improve your chances of finding a nice guy are striking up casual conversations with men—not for flirting but just for friendship. The best relationships grow out of friendships.
Keep in mind, however, that guys may be a little disoriented at first when a lovely woman begins talking to them. I saw a gorgeous woman at my gym talk to a couple of young guys, and when she walked away they started laughing and punching each other in a “Can you believe what just happened?” kind of way. So don’t expect much from the first conversation; your beauty may momentarily transport men to a place where they are not capable of rational thought. Thankfully, that effect wears off after a while!
As for having anything meaningful in your life, I think that most women will tell you that as they get older, what brings them the most meaning has nothing to do with men.
December 11, 2013 at 1:10 AM
Thank you very much to the person who wrote this blog/page. I feel a lot better about myself now. I was soooo depressed. I literally cried. Further, many of these apply to me…I have NOT been in ANY relationship, but the way men have approached me, clearly gives off a hint that they are into one thing only.
December 11, 2013 at 8:41 AM
I am glad this post gave you some insight into your experiences, Alvina. Please remember that there are many good men out there. Just because the men who approach you are hunters does NOT mean that all men are like that.
December 11, 2013 at 9:16 AM
Princess Alvina,
Join the club! I couldn’t get a real date if my life depended on it. In fact, I haven’t had a date in about 20 years. I’ve had a lot of weird come-ons though. Here’s what happens with me. It never fails…
I like a guy. I notice that he likes me. I think that maybe there’s a chance of a relationship. Then…he starts getting crude with me and I know that it’s over.
I always get very depressed afterwards. I feel absolutely crushed. The last time it happened I ran home, fell into bed and cried my eyes out. I really liked that guy. Discovering that he was only interested in bedding me tore me up inside. I didn’t want to believe it.
I’ve pretty much given up at this point. Any man truly interested in me is going to have to really make an effort.
Phil,
I’d like your opinion on something. I recently met a man at one of our overseas offices. I saw him trying to catch my eye. Finally, on the last day I was there we briefly chatted for a couple of minutes. After I left I went on to the company website in order to find out who he was. I looked him up on LinkedIn and sent him a private message. (I didn’t ask to connect with him) I asked if he was the man I spoke with. He said that he was and then told me what we had chatted about. I then sent a response telling him that we were never introduced and that it was nice to meet him. I thought it was a subtle way to let him know that I’m interested.
I hope I didn’t do anything wrong. I don’t like pursuing men. I just wanted to drop a hint. Do you think he got it…or are men sort of dense? (I hope I didn’t look too stalker-ish)
December 11, 2013 at 9:32 AM
Thanks for comforting Princess Alvina, E. Yes, crudity is always a dead giveaway. However, given that sexual attraction is a natural and intrinsic part of any romantic relationship, the topic may come up early on. What are your thoughts on that?
As for your comment on LinkedIn, I think you handled that beautifully. However, it’s important for women to know that the “signals” they send to men are often so subtle that men either don’t pick up on them or are unsure if they just received a signal or not. In the woman’s mind, such signals are unmistakably clear. As a man, I can assure you that this is not the case. If a woman ever contacted me like that, I could think of all sorts of reasons why she might have done that, none of which have to do with dating. I would encourage women to be more direct. For instance, saying something like, “Let me know if you’d like to meet for a cup of coffee sometime.” It’s not just that men are dense, it’s that your crystal-clear signals are open to interpretation and are not as crystal-clear as you think they are. Men and women cannot read each other’s minds, but both (especially women) assume that the other always understands where they’re coming from. The simple solution? Be friendly, respectful and direct.
December 11, 2013 at 9:40 AM
Phil said: If a woman ever contacted me like that, I could think of all sorts of reasons why she might have done that, none of which have to do with dating.
Thank you for that insight, Phil.
I’m not sure how to be clear without looking stalker-ish. I don’t want him to think something like…”Wow, we talked for two minutes and now she’s all over me. Pretty soon she’ll be boiling my pet ferret.”
Also, I think I’ve now lost the opportunity to be clear. If I message him again I’ll look pushy.
He’s probably coming to our office early next year. Perhaps I should just wait until he arrives.
December 11, 2013 at 9:44 AM
About being crude…
I’m not a prude. I don’t have a problem with it if a relationship has already been established. However, these comments always seem to happen before the man knows much of anything about me.
December 11, 2013 at 9:45 AM
I couldn’t agree more, E. If a man is crude right off the bat, that’s a pretty good sign that he’s a hunter.
December 11, 2013 at 10:01 AM
E, I think women are so afraid of being stalker-ish that they become too cautious and therefore too murky in their “signals” to men. How do you like men to approach you? I would guess that you would want them to be friendly, respectful and direct. So if you are friendly, respectful and direct with a man, what’s the worst that can happen? That he would say no? Guess what? That’s what men have to deal with all the time.
Read some of the comments by men on this post; more than one of them talk about how soul-crushing it is to get rejected by a woman. Many men have given up trying altogether because they feel so humiliated when a woman turns them down. I suspect that women would encourage these men to keep trying and to not take rejection so personally and harshly. So I’m asking you, How is this different than you as a woman being friendly, respectful and direct with a man and taking the chance of being turned down? Why do women expect men to put their own neck on the chopping block but are so terrified of doing the same thing themselves? I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.
December 11, 2013 at 10:12 AM
I see your point, Phil.
Ok, I’m feeling brave. I’m willing to send one more message to him and this time I will be direct. Can you help me with it? I want him to have no doubt about my interest in him because I’m pretty sure that he’s interested in me given his many attempts to catch my eye.
What can I tell him that will get the message across loud and clear?
December 11, 2013 at 10:35 AM
How about:
“When you come to our office in February, I’d be happy to welcome you and give you a little tour of (the office, city, etc. depending on whether he’s been there before) or introduce you to the team members here.”
or
“When you come over to our neck of the woods in March, I’ll introduce you to one of my favorite coffee shops. Take care.”
Good luck, E. Just remember, if he doesn’t take you up on it, it’s not the end of the world. At least you gave it a shot and don’t have to torture yourself with “What ifs.” And remember too that this is what guys have to deal with all the time. If it doesn’t go the way you want it to, shake it off and keep trying. When it does work (and it will), you’ll be grateful you made the effort!
December 11, 2013 at 11:46 PM
Dear E,
Thank you very much for trusting me enough to share your experience with me. I appreciate that and I absolutely agree with you when you say “I’ve pretty much given up at this point. Any man truly interested in me is going to have to really make an effort”. I feel better about myself after reading this blog and yours and phil’s responses to me….However I have more to share.
December 12, 2013 at 5:10 AM
Those messages are not needy or stalkerish in the slightest, and they put across the message fairly clearly.
Women worry too much about seeming needy. “Creepy” was a word invented by women. I can’t imagine a man thinking negatively about a woman revealing her intentions.
December 12, 2013 at 7:40 AM
I’m with you, Steve. If women were more direct (albeit with enough subtlety to make them feel comfortable) about revealing their intentions, there would be a lot less confused men and a lot more happy women.
December 17, 2013 at 11:45 PM
OK, I didn’t send the man another message. It just didn’t feel right. Yes, the guy was trying to catch my eye. However, that alone makes me wonder about the man. Who would behave that way toward a brand new face in the office that he knew wouldn’t be there for more than a few more days? So, without having more information I decided not to do anything. Better safe than sorry. If, at some point in the future, I get more information about him I will re-evaluate the situation.
December 17, 2013 at 11:55 PM
It’s always best to trust your intuition, E. Safety is an important issue.
I have a question for you. Let’s say you were in a faraway place for a few days and you encountered a man whom you felt an immediate soul-deep connection with. Would you do your best to ignore it and fight against it because it doesn’t seem practical? Yes, chances are that the man who was trying to catch your eye was just another hunter. But watch out for having a one-way conversation in your head that convinces you that something about someone else is true. It’s very common to believe something is true because we want it to be true, not because it actually is true, because it often isn’t.
December 18, 2013 at 12:08 AM
Princess Alvina,
I have had trouble with this my entire life. I could write a book on it. I’ve even been physically attacked by women a couple of times.
The funny thing is that I don’t see myself this way. I’m insecure, hate being photographed etc. Other people tell me that this isn’t true. According to them I have “movie star looks” and other women envy me to the point where they have trouble being friendly. One woman I worked for didn’t want me wearing makeup to work.
Even one of my good friends has to constantly point out my skin and my age to this or that makeup counter as if to say, “I wish I looked like that.” I cringe when I hear this because I know what the feelings that give rise to it can do. Add to that the fact that this woman in 10 years younger than I am.
My own mother has always been envious of me and did her best to make me feel miserable about myself. I rarely talk to her because of it.
Add to this the fact that I come from a somewhat privileged background and people tell me that it shows. I’m not a snob. However, people tell me that I come across as “high society”. So, I’ve really been double-whammied on this.
I’m always on edge. I don’t trust people. I’ve been stabbed in the back by women MANY times and have had to endure 30+ years of men who only want to get me in the sack. I haven’t had a date in about 20 years.
It is a VERY lonely place to be.
December 18, 2013 at 8:52 AM
I am so very sorry to hear about your years of anguish and loneliness, E. It’s easy to understand why you have reacted as you have and have come to a place where you’re always on edge. Still, I hope that, some day, somehow, you will be able to find some measure of peace and acceptance within.
December 18, 2013 at 10:24 AM
The truth is that I’m dying to know. Was he just another hunter or was he genuinely interested? I want to ask him why he was looking at me.
December 18, 2013 at 10:31 AM
Well, the most important question is, Were YOU genuinely interested? I had a very attractive woman friend tell me that all her life, she’s never chosen the guys she’s been with. They’ve always chosen her. I remember feeling sorry her her and for all women who feel like they can’t make their own choices.
December 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM
Yes, I am genuinely interested in him…at least, as interested as I can be without having more information. Based on his physical appearance and the brief conversation we had…yes, I would like to know more. As I said, I really want to ask him straight up why he was looking at me.
About never choosing the men….yes, this has been my experience as well. I was thinking about that the other day.
December 18, 2013 at 1:45 PM
Well, I can answer the question of why he was looking at you, E. It’s because you are a beautiful woman. Men look at beautiful women. We can’t help it. It’s what we do.
So what’s the worst that can happen if you e-mail him something like this: “When you come over to our neck of the woods in March, I’ll introduce you to one of my favorite coffee shops. Take care.”
If you refuse to be proactive, you’ll never find out if there’s something there worth pursuing. And you’ll go on waiting for men to choose you instead of you choosing them.
If it’s rejection you’re afraid of, welcome to the club. That’s what every man has to deal with.
I wish you luck!
December 18, 2013 at 1:50 PM
It is interesting to read E’s posts. A lot of what she is saying is rationalization, especially the first of the three she just posted. Women frequently lean towards seemingly valid reasons why something is the way they percieve it. But, out of the many reasons they could give, they lean towards the ones that best merges in with what they are feeling at the present moment.
I can understand how a person’s past experiences makes them think a certain way about the world. The past often contaminates the present.
The percentage of so-called “hunters” among the male populace is extremely low. There are very very few men on this Earth that have made seducing women a hobby. Chances are you will never run into one.
I don’t think a hunter would have done anything BUT initiate conversation and sex in the shortest time-frame possible. Timid eye contact followed by inaction is the complete opposite of a hunter.
One thing I have noticed a lot of women miss is that, while it may be easy to get a man to have sex with you, it is a lot harder to keep him. A man has to work to get the woman to have sex, and a woman has to work to get the man to want to stay. A lot of women (uglier women with more suitors), tend to think sex is all they must give out, they believe they have the power. Then, the man vanishes and they ask why.
I am not saying attractive women have bad personalities, I have met some with wonderful personalities. But, a common trend I have noticed is somewhat of a social ineptitude when dealing with relationships. This stems from inexperience. Men will seem interested initially, but once the initial steam of validation wears off your looks are nothing. A lot of attractive girls get confused because they have men who are initially interested but don’t stick around.
The key here is personality. What a man falls in love with is not looks, it is personality. When a man vanishes after sex, it is not because he received it too fast, it is because he decided that sex was the only thing worth pursuing. If a man judges a woman’s personality to be wonderful, he will want more than sex. This applies even to the most dedicated of hunters.
December 18, 2013 at 5:38 PM
You have excellent insights, Steve. I think a lot of women would disagree with this statement though: “The percentage of so-called “hunters” among the male populace is extremely low. There are very very few men on this Earth that have made seducing women a hobby. Chances are you will never run into one.” Your last line about even the most dedicated of hunters sticking around because he likes a woman’s personality may be true to some extent, but my guess is that many hunters avoid entanglements at all costs; they only want a woman for one thing and it’s not someone to go to the mall with.
That said, the rest of your final paragraph is very astute. Women tend to think that if they have sex with a man too soon that the man won’t be interested in them. I’ve never understood that. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me.
December 18, 2013 at 8:58 PM
Steve said: “What a man falls in love with is not looks, it is personality.”
That’s why women should wait. You want the man to be in love with you BEFORE you jump in bed with him.
Steve said: “The percentage of so-called “hunters” among the male populace is extremely low. There are very very few men on this Earth that have made seducing women a hobby. Chances are you will never run into one.”
I don’t think they’re everywhere. However, I’ve run into quite a few, Steve.
Steve said: “I don’t think a hunter would have done anything BUT initiate conversation and sex in the shortest time-frame possible. Timid eye contact followed by inaction is the complete opposite of a hunter.”
I hope that you’re right.
December 18, 2013 at 9:00 PM
I hope Steve is right too, E. The best of luck to you.
Steve, E has an excellent point: Given that you’re not a beautiful woman, you don’t see the hunter side of men like women do. I’ve been surprised to hear from women friends what wolves some guys I know are.
December 18, 2013 at 9:02 PM
Phil said: “If you refuse to be proactive, you’ll never find out if there’s something there worth pursuing.”
You’re right, Phil. I don’t have anything to lose. I will let you know what happens.
December 18, 2013 at 9:04 PM
Yes, please do, E. I’ll be sending good thoughts your way!
December 19, 2013 at 7:40 AM
“That’s why women should wait. You want the man to be in love with you BEFORE you jump in bed with him.”
The danger here is that, while you will scare away the hunters, you may also scare away other types of men. There is a degree of perceived manipulation in “making a man wait”.
Under that scenario, the man feels like he is being taken for a sucker. Even more so if the woman is attractive. I remember a particular case of a friend of mine. He was dating a girl who explicitly “made him wait”, but she had also previously told him about sleeping with men on the first date when she was younger. Obviously, the man felt used and left. By “making him wait”, she scared away a man that would have otherwise stayed.
“Making him wait” is akin to man refusing, for example, to hug you before he gets sex. It introduces a cold transactional enviroment into the relationship, and it often kills any emotional spark that there could have been.
Very negative thing “making him wait.” It will not only scare away the hunters, but most men, unless they are desperate. Women rationalize by saying “he only wanted me for sex.”
Men rationalize leaving by saying “she was trying to manipulate me with sex, like wobbling a sausage on a string in front of a dog.”
December 19, 2013 at 7:45 AM
Good points, Steve. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle between your position and E’s. One friend told me that a girlfriend of his made him wait and wait and wait. Finally, the wait was over. Afterwards, he asked her why she made him wait so long. She said, “I didn’t want you to think I was easy.”
Two big problems with that: 1) Good men don’t think that way, so women are fooling themselves. 2) If I had to ask and ask and ask a woman, well, that isn’t going to happen. I respect women and I respect when I hear, “No.” I’ve always felt that “No” means no. If a woman expects me to read her mind and NOT respect the word “No,” well, that isn’t going to happen.
Don’t play games. Be direct and honest. Problem solved.
December 20, 2013 at 12:52 AM
I’m not talking about manipulation. I genuinely do not want to get intimate before there is a deep emotional bond and I won’t. I don’t want to be sleeping with a man before I know that he’s going to stick around and the only way I can increase the possibility that he’ll stick around is if he’s in love with me. Any man who objects to this is looking for sex and not much else. I think that’s pretty obvious.
Unfortunately, far too many women are hopping into bed with men before they have made a commitment to them and they’re making it hard for the rest of us. This bed-hopping isn’t good for men either. I’ve spoken to many men who feel just as emotionally depleted by it as woman.
Regarding the man at work…
I sent him a very nice, short straightforward email where I expressed my interest in him. I’m not expecting a response. This is a pattern that I’ve noticed. Men will express interest in me and then when I reciprocate they back off. I’m not talking about me following the man around after a date and thereby scaring him off. It never even gets to the first date. The man either stops cold when I say “I like you, too” or says “Great, let’s get naked.” I have yet to understand it. Perhaps there are more insecure men out there than I realize.
December 20, 2013 at 1:21 AM
Glad you took the chance, E. Regarding your last comment, how many men or women do you know who aren’t’ insecure in some way? Everyone has insecurities of some sort and much of the time they’re related to intimacy, trust and acceptance within relationships.
Here’s another important point regarding face-to-face encounters: If a man you really like unexpectedly revealed that he likes you very much, would you react calmly and rationally or would you perhaps be so momentarily consumed in a happy stupor that he may think you’re feeling just the opposite about his confession than you really are? In other words, you might not know what someone is really feeling until the initial shock wears off.
December 20, 2013 at 1:46 AM
I know I have frightened the man. He wasn’t expecting that. It’s not my fault though. He was the one who first expressed interest. I’m merely responding to it.
December 20, 2013 at 1:52 AM
Don’t be too sure of anything, E. A lot of women and men convince themselves about what another person’s reaction will be before they can possibly know, which can lead to misinterpretations and missed opportunities. Stay open and positive. If it doesn’t work out like you hoped it would, don’t let that discourage you. The most important thing is that you put yourself out there. Good things tend to happen the more often you do that.
December 20, 2013 at 9:06 AM
“It never even gets to the first date. The man either stops cold when I say “I like you, too” or says “Great, let’s get naked.”
There is some reassessment to be done. Men like sex, there really is no getting around this. In America, there is a fast sex culture and many women will actually not text you back if you don’t go for it fast. Therefore, men are expecting it fast.
If they don’t get it fast, then you are asking them to make an important sacrifice (considering how many women will have sex quickly), before they have really invested anything in the relationship. From a man’s point of view, why would he stick around to wait for a girl he barely knows? More so considering there are many other unknowns out there with which he can at least have fun until he fully invests himself and the girl gives him a reason to stay.
My parents slept together on the first date, and they have been married for 55 years. By excluding men who want sex (all of them), you are shooting yourself in the foot.
December 20, 2013 at 10:44 AM
The concept of a “fast sex culture” is alien to me, Steve. But the point is that both men and women have wildly different attitudes about the timing and appropriateness of sex. Trying to reason with someone about their stance on the matter is futile; it’s not a rational position, it’s an emotional one. Typically, both genders are convinced that they know what is happening in the mind of the other, which often leads to disappointment for both parties.
December 20, 2013 at 11:05 AM
I wouldn’t necessarily say it is an emotional position. Women enjoy sex as much as men do, and whenever they do make a man wait, they are restraining themselves. And, if they are not, then it is bad news. Why would they even be dating someone they don’t find sexually appealing? Money, status, loneliness… Fine for some, but I wouldn’t wish it upon a man to find a woman whom does not desire him.
But, if all is good and well, when women make a man wait it is out of self-restraint. It still gets me to this day when a woman clearly likes me and wants to have sex with me, but doesn’t.
Therefore, it is a rational position. Some women believe that by keeping the sex door closed, the man will become more invested and, hence, more likely to stay. In reality it is the woman attempting to manipulate the man into staying, as morally wrong as the player who uses words to manipulate a woman into bed.
It is another form of gameplaying. It says something about character, and it should be considered a red flag in any relationship.
December 20, 2013 at 11:45 AM
I understand why you say it’s a rational position, Steve, but I still think it’s more emotional than rational. ULtimately, it’s fear-based. I think we can agree on that.
Here’s the problem: “No” can mean one of two things:
1) No, not now and don’t ever ask me again.
2) No, not now but keep on asking (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
Women expect men to be able to tell the difference between these two very different versions of “No.” To me, “no” means “no.” Some women respond to that by saying they want the man to “work for it.” It’s a mystery to me how such women expect men to read their minds and play the game exactly like they want them to play it. If a woman is after an honest, emotionally intimate and authentic relationship, she is subverting that goal by thinking she can start the relationship by acting in a way that is completely the opposite of what her ultimate objective is.
What it comes down to is that many women are playing elaborate games in their minds that many men have no awareness of.
December 20, 2013 at 11:03 PM
Steve said, “Some women believe that by keeping the sex door closed, the man will become more invested and, hence, more likely to stay. In reality it is the woman attempting to manipulate the man into staying,”
No woman wants to sleep with a man and then have him disappear. Sex is quite different for women than it is for men. When a woman has sex with a man she becomes emotionally invested. Why would I do that if I’m not reasonably confident that he’s not going to walk away later?
Also, I don’t want to sleep with a man merely because I find him attractive physically. That’s a male thing. It’s different for women or at least for women over the age of 25 or so. The man has to attract me with his personality as well. I’ve known plenty of very attractive men and I’ve never had even the slightest interest in sleeping with them. So, it’s about A LOT more than physical appearance and that’s not something you discover in a few dates.
I don’t send mixed messages to men that I’m interested in romantically. I had a man not too long ago push ahead a little too fast and I told him to back off. I was very clear: “I’m interested in you but not interested in sex until we spend a considerable amount of time together first.” He backed off immediately and apologized. However, he’s still around. We haven’t been on a formal date since we live in different cities. But we do talk (and do know each other in real life.) It’s possible that there’s something there with him. I will wait and see. If he finds someone who puts out and disappears…it’s his loss. I’m not going to compromise on something this important. I either get someone worth my time or I don’t get someone at all.
****
Steve said, “many women will actually not text you back if you don’t go for it fast. Therefore, men are expecting it fast.”
I refuse to associate with people who behave like this. If a man told me that I should too because all the other women are doing it I’d say, “Great. There’s plenty of them for you to choose from them. Goodbye.” I don’t have time for this type of nonsense. Men will either behave properly with me or hit the road.
…and…if you’re associating with women who won’t text you because you’re not trying to sleep with them immediately…you’re hanging around the wrong kind of women.
December 20, 2013 at 11:36 PM
E, you wrote:
“No woman wants to sleep with a man and then have him disappear. Sex is quite different for women than it is for men. When a woman has sex with a man she becomes emotionally invested. Why would I do that if I’m not reasonably confident that he’s not going to walk away later?”
It took me a while, but I finally figured out how to explain what I wanted to say. You and pretty much every woman make the mistake of assuming there’s a monolithic entity out there called “men.” In truth, there are two categories of men—hunters and nice guys. As I explain in the post, hunters view women as impersonal sexual conquests, while nice guys view women as complete human beings.
If a woman sleeps with a hunter, it’s true that he likely will abandon interest in her. So the sooner she sleeps with him, the sooner he will lose interest. Therefore, a woman play all sorts of games trying to get a hunter to have “deeper feelings” for her before she sleeps with him.
However, even if a woman sleeps with a nice guy on the first date, that will not diminish his attraction for her because he already has “deeper feelings” for her. In fact, sleeping with a nice guy early on will likely deepen the emotional intimacy that he already feels for her and strengthen the bond between them.
Withholding sex from a nice guy may even be counterproductive in that he may get discouraged and think you’re just consigning him to the “friend zone” like so many other women have done. At the very least, if you’re not going to sleep with a nice guy because you’re afraid it will drive him away (which it won’t), at least be direct and tell him you’re interested in developing the relationship. That will allay his fears and then the timing of sex becomes a non-issue.
December 21, 2013 at 8:11 AM
By the way, E, what I said in my recent comments about women needing to be more direct was answered beautifully when you wrote this: “I was very clear: ‘I’m interested in you but not interested in sex until we spend a considerable amount of time together first.'” That’s awesome! It’s direct, simple and clear. And if a guy can’t accept that, then like you said, he’s the wrong kind of guy.
December 25, 2013 at 2:53 PM
“We haven’t been on a formal date.” “It’s possible…”I will wait and see” “it’s his loss.”
These quotes, along with the fact that the poster has mentioned her interest in another man at her office, show the problem. She is simply not attracted enough. That is why she can afford the privilege of being rational in her decisions.
This is part of my reasoning, and I have found it to be something to look out for in relationships. If a woman is strongly and viscerally attracted to a man, it is SHE who wants the sex as soon as possible, almost more so than the man.
It is astounding to see the difference between a woman’s behaviour when she is attracted against when she isn’t. I can tell when a woman wants me, and if she does, then I push for it fast because I know that is what she wants as well. This is regardless of what she might say. Sometimes women will give off some token resistance to put off an image, I learned this in my young days when some girls would get angry when I backed off to their token objections (“I’ve never done this before”, “Oh, this is so fast.” and the like. Thankfully, true objections come at the door of the apartment and not when actually inside.)
But, if a woman is so unattracted that she can afford the privilege of being rational, then chances are it is a doomed relationship anyway. It is difficult to explain, but it is something experience has taught me. All my lasting relationships emanated from sex within the first three dates, and I lost every single girl that I waited for.
Women will sometimes rationally decide to date a man with certain qualities if she has been hurt before. She has been hurt by a certain type of man, and rationally decides to date the opposite. But, she dated the previous man out of attraction. The second guy was a rational decision, regardless of the woman’s self-rationalizations.
I challenge the poster to look back on her sexual history. Who were the men she experienced the most emotions with? Who were the men that stick out the most in her memory, maybe even the ones she loved the most (and now hates the most)? For many women, it is the same. The best most intense relationships have no waiting in them.
No amount of time will cure a lack of attraction.
December 25, 2013 at 9:01 PM
Steve said, “These quotes, along with the fact that the poster has mentioned her interest in another man at her office, show the problem. She is simply not attracted enough. That is why she can afford the privilege of being rational in her decisions.”
*****
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I have strong feelings for this man and I’m very attracted to him. However, that doesn’t mean that I will go jumping into his bed right away. That would ruin everything and I like him way too much to ever take a chance on that. The more I like a man…the more attracted I am to him…the more careful I’m going to be. We don’t need to act on our every emotion. I really wonder about the women you’re meeting. Everything seems to revolve around sex. There’s more to life than that.
The guy in the office – who never responded to my email, btw – looked interesting. However, I didn’t have the chance to develop any feelings for him other than initial interest.
December 26, 2013 at 12:10 AM
Dear Phil & readers of this blog,
On December 11, 2013, I posted a comment on this blog. Today I would like to share what actually happened:
Exactly a week earlier (December 04, 2013), I went to our local shopping mall to visit a stall that was selling a new range of beauty products. Now, for some background information, the stall is there to promote SEACRET beauty products (see http://www.seacretspa.com). I do not wish to say the real names of these people so I will use X, Y and boss (my friend) to address them with. I will explain the incidents in chronological order:
Prologue to incident 1 (approx. 2 weeks earlier)- The incident when Y was hitting on me (That was our second meeting), I was at the stall talking to their boss, who is like a friend of mine. I had my hair curled that day, as I had promised her a day earlier. This is what Y did:
Y: (wolf-whistles) My gorgeous! My gorgeous! Come to me (holds out arms)
Me: (freak out and step back)
Y: (Gasps) you broke my heart, I wanted to propose to you today
.
Boss (my friend): Sorry, Y, she is mine.
Y: (stares lustfully)
Incident 1 (December 04, 2013)- 2 weeks before, I had come to this same stall. I saw two guys who knew me from a couple of previous visits. They were X & Y. Y was busy with another customer and X was free. I went to X and as I was about to ask him about the particular product I was after, he just said hello, shook my hand and kissed my cheek. I was sooo shocked, I mean come on, this was our second meeting. I did not know what to do or say. However, I just ignored it and asked him about the product and he started helping me look for it. His colleague, Y, was free by that time, so he sat down and when I came into sight, I noticed him, from the corner of my eye, leering at me lustfully, with a cheeky smile. I look up and he winked at me. Dazed and confused, with my breath heavy I lowered my gaze and stepped away, aghast almost stepping onto X’s foot. Y got up and walked to me with an ostentatious gait, sashaying his shoulders, while keeping his lustful gaze fixed on me. He came up REAL close to me and said “Hello”…..I responded stammering “Hello”…His leer got stronger and he winked again. The following is the conversation:
Y: Do you have a Boyfriend?
Me: (stammering, while glancing at him nervously) No….Ddddon’t you have a girlfriend?
Y: No, I don’t. I don’t like commitment, I just like to have fun, so that’s why I don’t have a girlfriend.
Me: (glances at him, then the floor, hyperventilating) No, I am the commitment type.
Y: (leers lustfully) Maybe one day get married.
Me: (stammering) Yeah maybe (looks away)
Y: (gets closer, ostentatiously) I like you…You’re really cute
Me: (shocked, confused) you- you’re good too
Y: (smiles and winks again leering lustfully)
I did not know what to say or how to act, so I just said, “looks like you guys don’t have what I need, I’ll come back some other day. See ya later”.
X & Y: OK, see ya later.
Incident 2 (December 11, 2013)
1 week later, you won’t believe what happened….Them two had a COMPLETE change in attitude and behaviour towards me. It was sooo insulting:
I was walking past their stall again they did not treat me like they treat other customers. Instead of offering me to try a product or buy something for me or a gift for someone else, they did not acknowledge my presence and just walked away to the other side of the stall. I knew both X & Y were ignoring me. I was sooo confused. When I finally got to X, he looked at me really weird and slouched away from me, like I was some kind of disease. The following was the conversation between us three:
X: I’m working right now
Me: Um, Excuse me, I’m here to buy something. Where is the boss?
X: (laughs weirdly) Why don’t you ask Y, he knows where she is
X & Y: (talking in a foreign language. I knew they were saying something crappy about me).
Y: (striding into sight looking aggressive, angry and scary) What do u need?
Me: This cream (pick up cream). How much is it?
Y: $200.00
Me: Thanks (stammering out of fear)
I bought the cream and went away as fast as I could. I could not understand why or what the hell happened. I got on the bus and literally went home crying. I told my friend, whose stall is a little distance away from theirs what happened. She said the following:
“Don’t worry. X & Y are both real dirty sleazebags. X is really nice, but still he has no respect for women and Y is just a sleazebag. Y asked me out for a drink, but I did not go. Y and I have each other’s numbers, but we don’t call each other.”
At another level on the mall, I have a couple of friends who work at a different store and of course they know about this stall. I told them also what happened and they said that, how the hell can they behave like that to a customer?? I will make sure nobody goes to their stall….MY other friend said let’s start a riot and I burst out laughing. They were so upset about what happened to me.
So judging by all the conversations, incidents etc. why were they sooo rude to me that particular day?? Is it because they figured I won’t give into their lustful desires?? Did he think that by asking my friend out, they would make me jealous?? This is why I was really sad and depressed that day. I felt like crap and wrote the comment on this blog. Further, I told their boss (My friend) everything about incident 1 and warned her GRAVELY not to say anything to them about kissing my cheek, hitting on me etc. So assuming that the boss said nothing to them, then why did they behave sooo rudely. I informed her about this incident too and she was a bit sad when I said “I don’t wanna come here anymore.” She said, “I will not say your name, but I will have to talk to them”.
December 26, 2013 at 11:26 AM
Princess Alvina said: “why were they sooo rude to me that particular day?? Is it because they figured I won’t give into their lustful desires??”
****
Yeah.
This sort of thing used to happen to me a lot. You can stop it by being more stony-faced. Smiling too much can be seen as flirtation.
December 26, 2013 at 11:40 AM
E, may I add the caveat that being stony-faced when men are coming on to you is perfectly understandable, but it’s important not to be stony-faced all the time. That’s a trap that’s easy to fall into and it cuts you off from living a happy, positive life.
December 26, 2013 at 7:10 PM
Dear E,
I understand what you are saying about how i should be stoney-faced….I never smile too much ( although I am a usually perceived as a happy girl) unless of course someone smiles at me. Further, as far as X & Y are concerned, they started the whole ‘hitting on me’ thing….I did not give them a gesture or smile. From my conversation with Y, i’m sure you can see how I was freaking out, stammering and stepping away…..Clearly they were just hunters.
December 31, 2013 at 10:02 AM
First of all, Happy New Years to everyone here who’s going through tremedous personal and spiritual growth.
I found this blog on this NYE and have found it fascinating – I consider myself and relationships as a non-interchangeable, non-separable combined experience as a spiritual and human experience. It is like the ‘Yin-Yang’ effect of duality – happiness cannot exist without sadness; how would one know the experience of itself without the polar opposite??
I proclaim (at age 41 now) that for the first 38-39 years of my life, I was the ‘Nice Guy’ portrayed by Phil. However, although now I realize I am a physcially attractive man on the outside, my lifelong struggle with shyness and lack of self-esteem has propelled me to look deep down inside to become a better human being. I am thankful for that experience of painful introversion (although I am a very humorous and witty person) with women specifically through out my life.
Without being narcissistic – I suppose I could possibly transform myself into a ‘HUNTER’ or ‘PREDATOR’ because now I realize the value I have as a mature & physically attractive man which I didn’t realize before. However, I want to reinforce what Phil had said: Nice guys lack the ‘seduction’ gene from the beginning – therefore from my own experience, my conscience could never allow me to become a ‘Player’. This existence and definition would fill my mind with terror because that would be considered immoral, rude, selfish, uncaring, and against my belief system and spiritual growth.
However, I have learned to ‘MAN UP’ – and it is a Man’s responsibliity and life journey to figure this out, and not any woman’s position to babysit his ‘arse’ or else you will still get a man without a set of real ‘balls’ to attract a beautiful woman. You can want a ‘Nice guy’ but if he’s got no ‘balls’ then you will not be attracted to him for very long, I can guarantee this for sure. Women want a man who can make her feel completely secure, protected, fulfilled, laughing, and comfortable emotionally and mentally.
However, there is ONE caveat in all of Phil’s philosophy – and this comes from my own personal experience after dating many very attractive women in the past few years since I manned up. I have to side on the voice of another gentleman earlier by the name of Perry – I agree that not ALL beautiful and attractive women are prime candidate for relationships.
Most of this what I am about to write are generalizations, however in life as we know it there are always exceptions. But I have experienced a large variation of behaviors from attractive women that can be compiled down to a list of descriptions such as self-entitled, self-centered, high-maintenance (drama, drama, drama), and little spirituality. It is almost a guaranteed polar opposite to find a beautiful woman who is also beautiful inside.
One must imagine what an attractive/beautiful woman learns in how to manipulate her world since she was 8-10 years old – she realized the POWER she holds against boys to do anything for her for free. This mentality goes into her teenage years – unless she has done some REAL inner-self exploration and has been spiritually expunged of all this shallow and vanity driven ego-centered way of how this world interacts, you end up with highly emotionally damaged beautiful women as they grow older. There is no surprise in the level of high insecurity and low-self esteem beautiful women typically have, as Phil has said: Beauty is a both a curse and a blessing.
So my personal opinion of the ‘Battle of the sexes’ here are shared responsibility for both sides: men, grow some ‘balls’ – get fit, dress nice, smell nice, be ambitious a bit in life, learn the art of manliness. Women, take your life in your own hands as you are the captain of your ship—don’t manipulate man for any purpose but be with them because you are first of all whole and complete deep down inside filled with inevitable love for yourself and you don’t need any man to do that for you.
This is my gold nugget for all of you this New Years Eve. Be the person you want to meet, and you will attract that in the end. Never think/feel negative, as that is all wasted energy which could have been used to better yourself into an amazing woman or man in the upcoming future.
Love is the only thing that is real in this world – all other feelings/emotions are not of love.
Be well –
Billy
Cambridge, United Kingdom
December 31, 2013 at 10:23 AM
Nice to hear from you, Billy. I certainly agree with your conclusion but I must take issue with a couple of the generalizations you made (which to your credit, you labeled them as such).
First, I have met many women who are beautiful both inside and out. Yes, there are conceited, self-centered beautiful women just as there are conceited, self-centered handsome men. But I don’t agree that such a description defines the majority of either good-looking gender.
Second, I have met many beautiful women who never realized what power they held over boys. Indeed, they thought that boys held power over them. It’s both funny and sad that, for the most part, high school boys know that girls hold all the power and girls think that boys hold all the power. I’ve brought this up to many attractive couples and the man always nods in agreement and the women always looks astonished. It’s actually pretty hilarious!
December 31, 2013 at 10:35 AM
Happy New Year Phil – your blog is a place of great service and I hope more people will come across it in the future. It has helped me understand and realized so much more about human psychology between men and women. It is also very self-healing for me, thank you. Life is a journey of vast proportions – and the most difficult part is our emotional journey.
I have also ordered all your books and e-book as well. Looking forward to some great readings of yours in 2014.
Take care – Billy
December 31, 2013 at 10:38 AM
I am so glad to hear that you found such value in my blog, Billy. And thank you so much for ordering my books. All the best to you, my friend!
December 31, 2013 at 2:37 PM
It is a common conception that attractive women are ugly inside. This isn’t necessarily true, but I can understand why many people would think it is.
Attractive girls don’t get properly approached that much, so most of the attention they get comes in the form of eye contact from all angles, and cat calls. These aren’t precisely pleasant if you are trying to go about your regular life. Many of these girls develop shields towards strangers, and I don’t really blame them. It is easier to look down at the floor than at a bunch of men that are staring. It is also easier to ignore and keep walking instead of engage every single cat call.
If every interaction you have ever had with the opposite sex has been forced and unnatural, it is to be expected that this girl’s social upbringing will not be normal. Most girls don’t realize why exactly these interactions are so unnatural. But, many become a bit distrustful, and they question the intentions of everyone. She knows why her male colleague and the guy at the shop treats her extra nice, she can see right through the bull.
Don’t let the cold façade of some women confuse you. She does not behave that way around her family and friends. Once she likes you and she trusts you, she will reveal herself. It is always a good idea to assume that a cold attitude at the beginning, as long as she is not actively trying to get away from you, is a green light to continue.
As I have mentioned in other posts, these girls often have a certain social inability. They require a strong man that will lead the way, and a lot of their behaviour stems from shyness despite their initial aloofness.
As to become a so-called “hunter”, I would recommend it. Not particularly in the sense of hurting women, but dating a lot of different women (while being honest) is a good thing. The whole seduction process will be taught to you by women, not by their words but by their responses to you. Understanding women is an important part of every man’s life, and it is worth the time required.
Happy New Year to everyone.
December 31, 2013 at 3:49 PM
Yes, Steve, that is a major point from the post—beautiful women are treated in unnatural ways and they don’t understand why so many of them develop coping mechanisms that make them more unapproachable. Completely understandable.
December 31, 2013 at 4:05 PM
Happy New year, Steve.
Very good point – back to the Primary Directive of Phil: Beauty is both a curse and blessing. Take care.
January 12, 2014 at 3:35 AM
Also doesn’t help matters that the main, if not the ONLY, experience most men have with really beautiful women is – from TV programmes. The common tropes in material like “Millionaire Matchmaker” etc is that somehow the guy has to bring this thing called “A-Game” to the plate.. and has to be model-like or very rich to land a beautiful woman.. the extrapolation from being shot down in school or in my case) being sexually bullied and left with long-lasting trauma by the colder, hardhearted women.. whjo used me to hone skills before snagging Alpha McBadBoy.. (I’ve been dealing with all this and am struggling to bring the weight down and am seeing how possibly the MMSL model can help)
The default assumption made by the shyer bloke on seeing a gorgeous woman is often “She’s taken” or “She’s too far above me”; she is assumed to have an equally powerful man in tow, or, and this is where the learned helplessness comes in, he’ll get a nuclear rejection.
Also doesn’t help that generally the only Beautiful Women the average bloke sees (on TV) are The Entitled Princess (think Kardashians or similar), the WAG (the Cheryl Cole archetype), the Gold-Digger (many cultural tropes).
TV Tropes is a good writeup for the default assumptions..
The BBC comedy “Coupling” is a good analysis of some of the insecurities etc.. and there are more Steve Cooper and Jeff Murdocks out there than Patrick Maitlands.
January 12, 2014 at 6:00 AM
I don’t quite understand all your cultural references, Alex, but I can certainly tell that you’re singing a common refrain. I suspect that these dynamics are in play in most civilized cultures.
January 24, 2014 at 2:34 PM
What you didn’t mention is that most very beautiful women have a set of skills and metaphorical weapons set aside to use on hunters, and that very intelligent and wise women who also happen to be beautiful can see a hunter just before he walks through the door, (yes women have intuitive radar for hunters, which can be men or other women). So, if a hunter “gets” a beautiful woman, it is a naïve beautiful woman or a lonely beautiful woman that doesn’t know how to protect her beauty, because intelligent, confident, and intuitive beautiful women get overlooked by the hunter, by her choice. A hunter’s greatest asset is preying on the right kind of prey, which is beautiful women with low self-esteem.
January 24, 2014 at 2:41 PM
I’m going to have to take your word for this, Savingbeauty, although I suspect there are plenty of beautiful women out there who would disagree with you.
January 25, 2014 at 10:03 AM
The best hunters look like quite the opposite, charming men.
If they are not competent at seducing women, then how can you really call them hunters?
January 25, 2014 at 3:16 PM
Phil, although I do appreciate the 15 reasons you’ve detailed above, I just want to add some thoughts I have from real experience of being pursued by hunters and seeing others pursued by hunters as well. Also, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” Truly. It is subjective, it is ephemeral, and it is mysterious.
The best hunters tend to be normal, average looking. That makes it more difficult to suspect them. Not to say all normal, average looking guys are hunters, but average looks is one of the benefits they have if they happen to be hunters/predators. There are hunters of all looks, just as all looks of women get hit on and preyed on by hunters. I don’t agree that hunters are just out for beautiful women. They are out for women who appear beautiful to them or who have some glow that they’re attracted to. There are hunters that are hunting a woman with money, or plumper, heavier women, or modelesque looking women, or petite women, or shy women…Hunters are clever at finding a woman’s weak points and then flattering her to make her feel good about herself, which in turn makes her feel good about him. But if that doesn’t work, he’ll reflect her weak points to her via criticism so that she is brought down and put into a mode of proving herself. In the proving herself, her intelligence, her beauty, her adventurousness, her self-confidence, whatever it is that the hunter/predator is challenging her on, he wins. He will challenge her and criticize her in the areas that will give him the results he wants: her money, or sex, or attention, or whatever it is the hunter/predator is after. Not all hunters think this deeply. But the very dangerous ones do and they are the ones to be particularly watchful of.
January 25, 2014 at 5:27 PM
Thankfully, Savingbeauty, I am terribly naive about the mind games played by men who prey on women. I know they do it and I know why they do it, but I have no interest in learning how they do it. I imagine that your descriptions are accurate, but I find them so contemptible that I don’t even want to try to go there.
January 25, 2014 at 6:50 PM
My mother definitely “fits the profile” of this post and it was hard growing up watching her getting beaten, losing money, having things stolen from her, being used for her status and connections and of course for sex, at the hands of unscrupulous men with the moral compass of a slug. And all she’s ever wanted was to be with a nice guy who loved her for who she was.
Women in this position are wise to have some of the shrewdness being shown by Savingbeauty here. Maybe by being overly suspicious they might be blocking themselves from finding a good partner but it definitely beats going through what my mother has gone through.
I do not envy you ladies… not one bit…
January 25, 2014 at 6:54 PM
Being seduced by hunters is one thing, BHS, but getting beaten and having things stolen crosses over into criminal territory. I’m sorry that she (and you) had to endure that.
That said, yes, I imagine that the right blend of savviness and sweetness would serve women well.
January 25, 2014 at 7:01 PM
I know Phill but they always began with seduction, so they could then work their way toward what they wanted.
This one guy even got her to pay for a surgery in his leg and a bunch of other things then dumped her as soon as she dropped him off at home from the hospital…
January 25, 2014 at 7:05 PM
BHS, I don’t know how some people can sleep at night.
March 21, 2014 at 3:58 PM
Phil writes: “9) Since beautiful women are ONLY approached by hunters, they understandably think that most, if not all, men treat women the way that hunters do. Meanwhile, the nice guys sit in the back of the room and admire her from afar.”
This is simply not always the case. As a conservative, evangelical Christian man, I was committed to and succeeded in “no sex until marriage” and no physical contact that could lead to a violation of that commitment. Having graduated professional school and near the top of my professions when just in my mid-20s, I had no problems asking beautiful women out on dates. I ended up dating a beautiful Christian gal for three years, fell in love with her and told her so, after she and I talked generally about her positive interest in marriage and family life. So, what happened? Phil’s article answers that question:
“13) Beautiful women often confine nice guys to the Friend Zone. A nice guy’s worst nightmare is hearing those nine SOUL-CRUSHING words, ‘But I think of you as just a friend.’ *** Which brings up the question: Can men and women truly be friends? Yes, but only if neither of them has any romantic interest in the other. If even one of them is harboring hopes of romance, the friendship will reach critical mass sooner rather than later, at which point the friendship must either dissolve or transition into a relationship.”
Answer: she broke my heart and put me in the Friend Zone because she wanted to “pursue her career,” “wasn’t interested in commitment” at that stage of her life (age 26) and “had no feelings for me” despite dating me–via a wide range of activities–in the three years leading up to that disastrous day. She even recommended that I date her own girl friend who was, in contrast and according to her, interested in entering into a committed relationship. So, the object of my affection simply “didn’t care” and was encouraging me to move on. Unrequited love, pure and simple that laid a huge hurt on me. The Four Word Solution: “Man up, nice guys” was irrelevant; I had “manned up” to my own detriment. So, it was up to her to unreject me because I needed to move on (as point #13 explains) to preserve my own sanity and assuage the pain. In the words of a female web commentator:
“There are some men who say if a woman turns them down, they will never propose [or volunteer a profession of love] again. It doesn’t mean they don’t still want to marry her, but not many men (or women) would set themselves up for rejection twice. In that case, the girlfriend might need to propose [or clearly retract her previous rejection] to the boyfriend if/when she changes her mind about marriage.”
That described me to a “T.” In the years following, even as I eventually returned to the dating scene, I left the door open for her to change her heart and mind (and I hoped she would) and clearly so inform me. And it finally happened when she called me out-of-the-blue at my workplace–3 3/4 years after the break-up, shortly before our 30th birthdays. But, by then, I was already engaged to the woman I would marry soon thereafter. My ex- had placed her feminist instincts and career orientation over romance and family life and waited too long to reciprocate my romantic interest and thereby requited my unrequited love too late. A true romantic tragedy. Why did that beautiful woman have trouble finding Mr. Right? Because her feminist impulse led her to slam the door in his (that is, my) face when opportunity knocked and she didn’t act in time to undo the damage. Or, in the words of another female commentator: “What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us.”
March 21, 2014 at 4:10 PM
Dear Requited2Late, I’m sorry to hear you got your heart stomped on and crushed. Few men (or women) have escaped that trauma. I truly hope you are happy with the woman you chose to be your wife, and didn’t feel obligated to marry her simply because you were engaged, especially if you were still in love with the woman you first proposed to. Sometimes what we think is the right thing to do turns out all wrong for everyone involved.
I agree that some nice guys do approach beautiful women. I addressed that in the Ground Rules at the start of the post. Good for you for manning up!
However, I do have to take issue with you blaming her “feminist instincts” and “feminine impulse” for turning you down. Both men and women should feel free to follow their heart and pursue a career and/or life in which they can express their true selves. Whether that means career or family or both is irrelevant. If a man or woman settles down too soon without pursuing their dream, they will eventually regret it. If a couple can get married AND pursue their dreams together, so much the better. But that has to do with being human, not a feminist.
March 22, 2014 at 8:33 AM
There is great truth to what the above commenter has laid out. This is a Western phenomenon, and has very little to do with whether the woman is “beautiful” or not.
Women in the West have been thrown into a collectivized life-plan where, from 20 to about 35, they are focused on their careers. Their romantic lives consist of either serial monogamy with R-selected lovers (sexual role vs long-term-provider role), or short-term flings that may or not happen simultaneously.
This is exactly what is to be expected in capitalism. Women no longer really depend on men for protection or financial support, so their R-selection predominates over their K-selection (in this environment, the alpha cad offers the woman more than the beta provider). Do not underestimate a woman’s sexuality, they are just as sexual, if not more sexual, than men, but only given the right circumstances and with the correct type of lover.
This applies to most women in this environment, beautiful or not. As I have mentioned before, unless a woman has a logical reason to settle for a provider (such as in poorer countries), she will often choose loneliness over a lover she does not find attractive. Men’s sexuality is about release, we can hold our breath and have sex with an ugly woman. Women cannot do this, as their sexuality is not about release. I also must emphasize that attractive for men means looks, but for women it encompasses a vast amount of other features. These are mainly general and partial social status, or even the emotional illusion of social status (eg. a confident man, a judgemental man or a preselected man will all be attractive to a woman even if they hold no real social power).
The “nice guy” who mans up might win in countries where K-selection is predominant, where women need and rely on men as long-term providers. These men, believe or not, do not hit women’s sexual attraction buttons. Women want confidence, they want to be disqualified, challenged, teased, mercilessly judged as a potential partner by a man with enough options to allow himself that luxury. They wish to fully submit to a man they see as socially valuable. The cad offers the woman this value, usually by being very aloof in the initial stages of courtship, and then capitalizes on this by physically escalating and pushing through token resistance. This is not politically correct to say, but 9 times out of 10, a woman’s “no” isn’t really a no, it is a “Don’t think I’m a slut” act.
This point also acts on a more visceral level. For a woman, sex is all about submission. A woman gets turned on immensely when a man pushes through her resistance, as this is the way that humans mated in primitive days. It weeded out the dominant tribe-leaders from the mellow pseudo-men at the bottom of the pack’s hierarchy.
“Nice guys” fail on both levels. First, their social value is low, as they seek approval through both body language and actions. This signals a lack of options, therefore low R-selected mating value. Then, they fail at escalation, as they will ask a woman for permission to perform the smallest physical moves. They also fail at providing women with the plausibly deniable flirtation that they crave, by overtly laying out their feelings on the table long before they have been reciprocated. The act of approaching the woman will do little, if nothing, to override this brutal lack of ability.
An attractive woman in her prime is capable of attractive high-value men, but she misunderstands that rejection works differently for men and women. A man gets rejected during the approach, when he first goes up to a woman. A woman gets rejected after sex, when the man decides she wants nothing to do with her as a person. A woman’s physical attraction will do little to ensure commitment from high-value men, as they also require the fundamental traits of humility, sweetness and signs of low-cheating risk. This is not to say that he will marry a land-whale; the woman must be acceptable, but a reasonably attractive (7.5 and upwards) woman can marry a high-value man as long as she presents these personality traits.
Now, back to the poster’s premise. A lot of Western women, attractive and not, will delay marriage far too long. They actively start to seek it out when their inevitable front-collision with the Wall initiates its countdown. At around 28, a woman starts to lose her looks, she becomes a depreciating asset in the marriage market. Reality will inevitably slap her in the face and her ticking biological clock with give her a sense of urgency that makes her compromise for the K-selected provider.
She is not attracted at all to this man, in 99 percent of cases, but she has no choice and makes the logical decision to marry. Hence, the rising divorce rates, and unhappiness of both men and women in marriage.
The only winners here are the men who can capitalize on a woman’s R-selection social programming, by managing short-term-relationships with women in their prime. This does not negate love, as its fleeting nature will make it a still viable opportunity.
March 22, 2014 at 9:11 AM
I’d like to hear women’s reactions to this, Steve. Granted, there are a lot of generalizations here but I used generalizations in the main post because generalizations are generally true. I look forward to hearing what women think about the issues you raised.
March 22, 2014 at 9:34 AM
I don’t think women will agree with what I said, but it is because a woman’s mating patterns happen at an emotional level. Her logical forebrain has absolutely no consciousness of what makes her mates attractive. It is similar to a man not knowing why a woman is attractive. Although science shows that it is in mathematical proportions and symmetry, when we see a woman, there are no numbers, either she is attractive or she is not.
Hence the contradictions between what women say they want and how they actually behave. Most of the time, if not ever, these do not coincide at all.
In reality, women do not know what they want. A woman is not capable of telling you what she wants. She just goes with what her feelings are telling her to do.
March 22, 2014 at 9:36 AM
That sounds pretty bizarre to me, Steve. If you’re saying that men know what they want because their needs and desires are simple and primal, but women’s needs and desires are more complex, that’s one thing. But I think any human being with any depth finds what they want by experiencing what they don’t want.
March 22, 2014 at 9:45 AM
STEVE: “They actively start to seek it out when their inevitable front-collision with the Wall initiates its countdown. At around 28, a woman starts to lose her looks, she becomes a depreciating asset in the marriage market.”
******
I actually have the opposite problem. I can’t get the younger men away from me. ..and no, I don’t date or sleep with any of them. Can you please tell them to leave me alone?
I love men who put their feelings out there. I also like to be asked for a kiss etc. These two things are called honesty and manners.
STEVE: Women want confidence, they want to be disqualified, challenged, teased, mercilessly judged as a potential partner by a man with enough options to allow himself that luxury.
******
Send me some of those men because I love to mess with them. Make sure they have crossfits bodies, expensive suits, high-paying professional degrees and cocky attitudes.
No, I don’t like men like this at all. I find them unattractive. A man like this wouldn’t be able to score even a coffee date with me. Sorry.
March 22, 2014 at 9:56 AM
Thanks for weighing in, A. All this talk about the games men and women play has always mystified me. I have no desire to dominate or submit to anyone and do not want to be with a woman who does either. The best relationships of all types are those in which the people involved are equals and treat each other with honor and respect.
March 22, 2014 at 10:01 AM
STEVE: “with give her a sense of urgency that makes her compromise for the K-selected provider.
She is not attracted at all to this man, in 99 percent of cases, but she has no choice and makes the logical decision to marry.”
*****
Ugh.
I hope most men don’t share Steve’s beliefs about women. However, this sort of poisonous nonsense is making the rounds and it seems to be coming mainly from the pick up artist community.
I have met men that I was crazy about, men that I could have fallen madly in love with and they were worried that they weren’t “alpha” enough or something. “You need a rich man.” No, I need the man I want and money, status and power have no meaning for me whatsoever. Honesty, intelligence, and a strong work ethic are the traits I want.
Only shallow women of poor character go for these “bad boy” types. Low intelligence is often present as well..but not always. Some highly intelligent women are simply borderline sociopaths seeking out other borderline sociopaths.
March 22, 2014 at 12:35 PM
Glad to hear you say this, A. I never understood the appeal of the “bad boy” and couldn’t understand why women would subject themselves to such boorish behavior.
March 22, 2014 at 1:19 PM
I know one woman who goes for rich men and “bad boys” and she’s a mess. I don’t think she cares for any of them. I think she just wants them to spend money on her. She even refers to herself as a “hustler”. This type of woman is atypical.
All I ask for in a man is, as I said, honesty, intelligence and a work ethic. Chemistry is necessary as well. However, I’ve had chemistry with both handsome and not so handsome men.
March 22, 2014 at 2:48 PM
“Chemistry”, as you put it, has a scientific basis. The pleasure centers of the brain liberate connection hormones (oxytocin / dopamine / serotonin) whenever evolutionary positive traits are manifested in a prospective partner. The reward-punishment neural system has developed over millions of years, and one of its many functions is ensuring that:
1. Men spread their seed as profusely as possible.
2. Women are inseminated only by those men with the best genes to survive. The men with the best genes were always the pack leaders, as their tendency towards dominance put them in that position. Women developed a system of response to status cues. Not this fake “Hollywood-esque” status that has come with capitalism, but basic social value, one of a billion examples, being the leader of a small group of friends.
Social value does not immediately equate to the stereotypical “bad boy”. Sometimes it does, but not always. But what can certainly be established is that “nice guys” are sorely lacking in it.
These are not “beliefs”. This is science and fact. “Ugh” is a rebuttal that would not hold up in the lab.
Attraction is not something that is intellectually chosen. We can refer back to social clichés we might respect, but they do not influence our perception of someone’s mating value. From a man’s perspective, it is very easy to understand. Do you find women with severe facial deformities, strong odor and abundant body-hair sexually attractive? Sure, you might respect them, but do you find them sexually attractive?
Or better yet, do you find men sexually attractive? There are some men I respect on an intellectual level, but the thought of sex with them is not pleasant for me.
A woman’s laundry-list of traits she supposedly asks for in a man have more to do with social programming that anything else. In fact, Psychology Today did a study where they found that a woman’s “list” changed radically when she knew she was being filtered by a lie-detector. This does not mean she is lying, because her “unfiltered” list would probably also be wrong (the only correct list is the average of her past lovers, aka her actions not her words). What it means is that her list is more a way of presenting herself to the world as pure, or whatever image of woman society deems correct at that moment in history.
“I actually have the opposite problem. I can’t get the younger men away from me. ..and no, I don’t date or sleep with any of them. Can you please tell them to leave me alone?”
This is a good quote. In fact, I already addressed this in my previous post:
“A man gets rejected during the approach, when he first goes up to a woman. A woman gets rejected after sex, when the man decides she wants nothing to do with her as a person.”
In fact, that quote is also a good indicator of what I have just said about social value. A man of older age is inherently higher value than a younger man (assuming we are not in nursing-home territory, picture a bell curve). A similar phenomenon occurs with height. Those are just two very obvious physical examples, but there are billions of tiny micro-indicators of social value that occur in human communication. Most are imperceptible unless carefully studied, so of course women are not aware of them. But they are not even aware of the bigger picture that encompasses them all.
But maybe they are, I am not sure. It has never ceased to amaze me how shy and pure-looking women drop their coy-act in the bedroom and start getting really nasty with their words. Women are fantastic at hiding their thoughts in favor of a positive presentation of their id. So maybe they do know and just hide it.
But I am inclined to believe they don’t. The real founder of psychoanalysis, Ernest Jones, called it rationalization. Present in men, but more powerful in women.
March 22, 2014 at 8:15 PM
I’m sorry but what is your definition of a “beautiful woman”? Me and everyone who’s seen me, considers me beautiful. If anything, I’ve attracted more “hunter” types in my heavy set days. You know, the good looking player types who didn’t want anything serious. Now that I am in shape, I attract a different type of “hunter”… the married guy… I’m more curious to know why married men love to chase beautiful women because they sure as hell did not approach me when I was fat! Also, I get approached by a ton of guys I consider facially unaesthetic.. in other words UGLY! These guys sure as hell would not have approached me in my fatty days. The type of guy that doesn’t seem to approach me nor my “beautiful” friends are the good looking guys. I wonder why is this? They approached me when I was more ” attainable” but not so much now. So my question is why do good looking men avoid beautiful women? Why do they prefer the average looking girl instead? I thought most good looking men would be considered hunters. But they tend to hunt average looking prey while the ugly men hunt the pretty women…………. Why is this???
March 22, 2014 at 8:20 PM
Hi, Leah. You asked, “So my question is why do good looking men avoid beautiful women? Why do they prefer the average looking girl instead?” I answered that in the main post: many men are intimidated by beautiful women so they do not approach them; instead they turn to less beautiful women because they are more realistically attainable. As for your other questions about married men and ugly men, I have no idea!
March 22, 2014 at 10:30 PM
QUOTE: “In fact, that quote is also a good indicator of what I have just said about social value. A man of older age is inherently higher value than a younger man”
You seem to have an answer for everything, Steve. These men are not losers. They’re well-educated and, in many cases, quite handsome. Most have good jobs. They’re approaching me because I look around their age (mid to late 30s) and they find me very attractive. It’s a problem I have. I’m a female version of Brad Pitt…with no wrinkles. When these men approach me they’re making an error and it creates an awkward situation. In other words, they’re not approaching me because I’m second best.
I get approached by men my own age and even older. I just don’t find them attractive because they have not only neglected their physical appearance through alcohol/tobacco use and a lack of exercise…but are quite clearly aging at a much fast rate than I am based on their genetic makeup. It would feel like being with my father. Also, a guy 5 years older than I am doesn’t appreciate being mistaken for my father.
******
QUOTE: “Social value does not immediately equate to the stereotypical “bad boy”. Sometimes it does, but not always. But what can certainly be established is that “nice guys” are sorely lacking in it.”
What sort of characters do you hang around, Steve?
******
QUOTE: “Psychology Today did a study where they found that a woman’s “list” changed radically when she knew she was being filtered by a lie-detector.”
I can assure you that my list isn’t going to change. I find dishonesty, stupidity and laziness a turn off. Above all though…a man has to be of good character. He has to be honest and kind toward other people.
*******
QUOTE: “It has never ceased to amaze me how shy and pure-looking women drop their coy-act in the bedroom”
Nothing wrong with that. However, smart women only do that once they have married.
March 24, 2014 at 5:49 AM
Hi Phil. Im 51 and wherever I go men and women would tell me that I am very beautiful and wonder why I never married. I recently joined a dating site and was thrilled that there was a seemingly nice guy that was willing to have an initial long distance relationship. We both think that our soul mates could be somewhere else, but as we exchanged emails and pictures and when he learned that I had only one serious short term relationship, he told me that there must me something wrong and that I should seek counseling. I felt awful and hopeless — so a pretty face with limited men EQUALS a psychological disorder/disability. So this is my curse.
Please give me some advice. I want to marry but men cannot seem to see beyond the physical assets of a woman.
March 24, 2014 at 6:00 AM
I’m sorry to hear about your struggles with romance, Des. I have been surprised at how many women are in your position, hamstrung by their beauty when all they want is a nice guy to be with. The danger is in assuming that the results of your efforts will never change so you might as well give up. Don’t ever lose hope! If you make it a priority and keep positive and hopeful, you are bound to have some degree of success. Good luck!
March 24, 2014 at 6:32 AM
Here is a fair quote that I think will properly address the issue at hand:
““When women claim to be seeking kindness, respect, a sense of humor, etc., they mean at most that they would like to find these qualities in the men who are already within their erotic field of view. When a man asks what women are looking for, he is trying to find out how he can get into that field of view. Women do not normally say, either because they do not know themselves or because it embarrasses them to speak about it. The advice they do give harms a lot of lonely men who mistakenly concentrate their mating effort on showing kindness and courtesy to women who are socially conditioned towards ungratefulness, rather than working to gain the things females viscerally respond to.”
– ‘The feminine sexual counter-revolution and its limitations’, F. Roger Devlin
March 24, 2014 at 10:55 AM
I am sure there is a lot of truth in that quote, Steve. My sense is that there are a lot of women out there who fit your model perfectly. However, I also believe that there are an equal number of women who do value kindness and integrity above animal magnetism. The challenge is finding such men and such women and matching them up. I also suspect that the older a beautiful woman gets, the more she will be likely to seek out kindness, honesty and humor while at the same time devaluing looks and primal attraction.
March 25, 2014 at 7:06 AM
I hate to say it, because this means that life is not as ideal as we would wish it to be.
A lot of the time, when people say they want this or that in the other sex, they are not being honest with themselves, they are just rationalizing their options. Picture a fat girl, she might tell herself that geeky men are “cute”, but in reality she is rationalizing to herself the fact that some men are inaccessible to her. Another example of this is a man saying that pretty women are too “stuck up” for his taste, and he would rather the homely (read less attractive) girl.
The best way to test people on this is to see what they would do if they had unlimited options. If you were given the choice between a modelesque Russian girl with a great personality and who cooks for you, or a slightly loud and curvy (read fugly) American whose company you find *pleasant*, who would you choose?
If you knew in your mind you did not have access to the better option, then you would find a way of telling yourself that fat girl is not that bad, and she has a nice smile or sense of humour.
You used the words “animal magnetism”. This is a synonym to the word “emotions”. Any emotion you have is animal magnetism. In the presence of an attractive woman, the emotion will be amplified. Sure, if she has a bad personality it will be diminished, but let us not make the mistake of equating physical attractiveness with a negative character. If your options were unlimited, you would go for the woman who makes you “feel” the best, the one that ticks your emotions, or animal magnetism, the best. Why would go for second, or third best, if you could have the best? You only settle, and rationalize your settling, if your options are limited, as is the case with all men except a very small minority.
Asking a woman to devalue animal magnetism to go out with a “nice guy” is like asking a man to go out with a morbidly obese old lady.
Sometimes women will classify their lovers as “nice”, but this is very different from the approval-seeking, favor-doing cry-on-shoulder men that we label this way.
March 25, 2014 at 8:03 AM
“In reality, women do not know what they want. A woman is not capable of telling you what she wants. She just goes with what her feelings are telling her to do.”
That’s a myth, Steve.
Men are the same way.
I have interviewed I don’t know how many men for my writing, and they end up changing their mind on women, and things in general time after time.
Also, many men date dumb, flaky women, so this makes it appear that all women are like this–that they do not know what they want.
The poster, “A” took the words right out of my mouth on the rest of your comments.
Brother, I don’t know WHAT you are thinking.
March 25, 2014 at 8:11 AM
“…he told me that there must me something wrong and that I should seek counseling.”
Des, instead of thinking of that as a negative, think of it as a positive.
You just dodged a bullet.
In fact, you should use the fact you never married as one of many ways to weed out the wrong kind of men.
It’s better to be alone, than to be with a dipstick, and wish you were.
In the meantime, you should approach men, instead of waiting for them.
Just start a conversation with them just like you would anybody else.
It’s JUST a conversation.
If you can’t do that, at the very least, smile at them, give them that look of interest.
Do this, and you won’t need a dating site.
Unfortunately, nearly all women don’t do this, especially the very attractive women.
This is one of the reasons why I no longer date.
March 25, 2014 at 4:26 PM
It is true, men are similar in the sexual choices, but for us personality plays a very small role in sexual selection. We do not know what proportions, in numbers, make a pretty face or an attractive body, but we recognize one when we see one.
In terms of relationships, I agree that we do not really know what we want. Men want different things, and the times I have fallen in love in the past I cannot really tell you why. Also, different men fall in love with different kinds of women.
I agree on that point. All that means is that NEITHER men nor women know how to put in words how their mate selection works exactly.
March 25, 2014 at 5:32 PM
The paradox is that, because love is for people who know who they are, you will not attain your ideal relationship until you learn and evolve; but the best way to learn and evolve is by being in a relationship. That’s why all this trial and error is so important. We learn who we are and what we want by learning who we are not and what we do not want.
March 25, 2014 at 11:21 PM
agree with the article. Sometimes you gotta take chances. But I think the “hunter” thing is just out of proportion. I think both men and women should go for who they like. And lower the expectations; expectations can disappoint you.
I am Autistic. So I have an intricate rational way of thinking.
First, majority of men are raised by single women anyways (most are young moms) so they barely know how to be a man themselves–they go off by being raised by women all their lives and adhering to them, unless they have a consistent male figure present.
But it seems so ironic. I see so many women with guys who treat them like nothing, but view the nice guy as: too shy, unconfident, and potentially manipulative. But, you are willing to “change” the bad guy, but not willing to work with the nicer guy. Both types “can” change with matters of time. But why discredit the nice guy prematurely? There are people who are just generally shy. Is that a bad thing? If you notice that, why not make the first moves and make them comfortable? I do this with shy people.
You never know what you can bring out in a shy person until you know them and make them comfortable.
I admit, nice guys will go over the top putting women on the pedestal. They should not do that. No woman wants a desperate needy guy. It comes off as annoying. But I have a small story myself here.
I was seeing a single mom; of one daughter. I have a way with words. I do. And she labeled me a “Sweet Talker”. Which is fine. But she rubbed me the wrong way. Because I would comment on how great she looked and being kind and cool here and there, but, she had in her head that I was just trying to get in her panties eventually. I assured her that wasn’t the case, I offered to take her out as well.
She said being nice messes with her head.
But on her Facebook. She posted: “This guy told me he’d marry Miley Cyrus just for the money to buy me 100 Ugg boots. This guy sure knows how to win my heart lmao”
So me saying how beautiful you are = me trying to sleep with you. But this guy telling you some unrealistic pickup line like that and it makes you aroused. So I deleted her. Her loss. I don’t categorize every woman as her of course.
It doesn’t matter how much a guy “mans up” but all it takes is for 1 or 2 mishaps and the gavel is slammed. Im a nice guy, in school, work with honor. As soon as a woman hears that I have no vehicle; that’s a strike worth 3.
Its like, I cannot make sense of what a woman really wants and what they do.
Like, a few times I’ve gone to a nightclub/bar. All the women were dancing with….women! I don’t get it! And when the men would ask some of them, they would refuse. And some were dancing up on a cold hard wall. The only guys that got dances were ones that were in couples, danced crazy good, or just knew the girls personally. Some men “manned up” and still got shot down at a social environment. But if a guy that was 6’3″ charming looks and is a perfect 10, they’d dance with the guy even if their feet were swollen out their heels.
I observed one woman. She wore a revealing outfit with her belly showing. She was with her friend (obviously the D-Driver) she stood their dancing by herself or even grinding on her friend. So basically, she went out to a club to give her best friend a private dance. Obviously she knew guys would ask her to dance, but shot them down. She danced with no one. And yes she was quite attractive.
I just think the manning up thing is way too said. We are all human. After getting shot down so much you start to think something is wrong with you. I admit. I can see a woman who is gorgeous to me. I wouldn’t know what the hell to even say. Im pretty sure even men that aren’t shy feels that way, but pickup artists know–because they’re intent isn’t to know you exactly.
I don’t feel sorry for men who get friendzoned. If a woman says she thinks of you as a friend, you need to address her right then and there that you think of it more than that. Friends cannot be friends if they are attracted to one another. And if she says no, then end the friendship. It’ll save you from looking stupid and disappointment. I am a nice guy, but that doesn’t make me entitled to every woman I come across to. People have the right to like what they like (with realistic standards of course).
For me, I’ll pursue, but for only a time being. If I see no interest reciprocation, then I leave her alone. Some hi’s and small talk here and there–but nothing else.
Women don’t know how actually well they can catch a guy off guard. When you’re at the bar, seeing that guy you like, why not buy him a drink?
Exactly what is a man to a woman? Is it what media portrays? Most women were raised by single motherhood with no father present. So she goes by off what her mother knows. And what if her mother is choosing bad men? And condones it in her relationships?
The father is the first man in a woman’s life to tell her that he loves her without requiring her to do anything but be a lady. So then, she won’t need ANY man’s validation on her beauty and self-respect because she’ll already know that from her father; which = her not falling for the first guy that “claims” he loves her. When its all said and done, actions are more defined than words. So if a man says he loved you, he’s supposed to show it. And it isn’t supposed to hurt. That’s how I think in the 24 years of my life.
I’ve been in one relationship. Never been in love. I don’t know if I’ll find it. I used to be happy being single. No worries at all. But now entering my mid 20s, reflecting on my life and how I view society, I think differently. I am sorry for hijacking this blog. I typed in “single” and “lonely” in Google and got here. Lol
March 25, 2014 at 11:30 PM
Shade, the best comment you made was about the importance of a father in a woman’s life. When a girl receives unconditional love from her father, she is less likely to seek love from a man in unhealthy ways.
March 26, 2014 at 1:12 AM
PHIL: “However, I also believe that there are an equal number of women who do value kindness and integrity above animal magnetism.”
*****
I require both kindness, integrity, intelligence AND chemistry. I don’t go out with men just because they’re pleasant. A lot of people are pleasant.
I have found that men in high-status occupations often lack integrity. Therefore, I tend to steer clear of them. I also steer clear of men with overly fit bodies because it’s an indication of their priorities. Expensive sports cars are another bad sign.
Handsome men are great. However, I am turned off by silverback chest beaters. When a man starts bragging to me about who he is or what he owns I know that he thinks that I’m a shallow idiot.
March 26, 2014 at 6:11 PM
Sure, A, it’s great to get the whole package—character, looks AND chemistry!
March 27, 2014 at 12:21 AM
As to the comment of Shade, I believe the men that get labelled players by women are usually not players. The real players are so smooth they go under the radar, women will rationalize what they do because it is all plausibly deniable.
For instance, complimenting a woman is fine once you are in a relationship with her. But, doing it during the courtship phase is death. Complimenting is standard procedure for any man who wants sex, so she equates it with fakeness and manipulation. It is a good idea to hold back the compliments until after sex, and if you absolutely must compliment, make it no big deal. “Beautiful” is too much. “I hate to compliment women, because I know how much they get it but you are alright.” is a more adequate compliment.
As to rejection, it happens for too many reasons to count. A lot of the time it has to do with the woman’s personal circumstance. She is not rejecting you, she has no idea who you are, she is rejecting the situation of a man hitting on her. At most, she is rejecting the “manner” in which you approached. Just approach a lot and find the optimal way of doing it. The beautiful thing about men is that our physical attractiveness is fluid. What a woman thinks about our looks is directly correlated to her perception of our social status. We can boost social status hugely through things like body language, the way we converse… Women do not have this privilege.
There are a lot of ugly truths about the dating market. When you first come into contact with them, they seem a bit sexist, or misogynistic, but experience confirms them and you directly see your results morphing. And knowing about reality is better than living in idealism. I wish I could post some blogs about this, but I am not sure if this is allowed.
As to what A said, “AND chemistry” is a woman’s way of referring to that erotic field of vision I talked about earlier.
March 27, 2014 at 7:32 AM
Steve, the idea that women should not be complimented early on in a relationship strikes me as absurd. I’ve never heard this before. I give women more credit than that.
A man’s social status is important to many women. However, there are many women who don’t care at all about such superficialities, as long as the guy’s not homeless or perennially broke. If women only cared about social status, then 90 percent of men would never get a date.
March 27, 2014 at 7:52 AM
A woman who is attractive hears this constantly. These canned compliments will just get her alerted, “what does this guy want from me?” But, I agree you can compliment as long as it is from a place of genuine feelings. The problem is that most times it is delivered from a place of wanting something, not of selfless giving. The woman can tell the difference.
As to social status, I am not talking about job or money. Confidence, for example, is a marker of social status. Any personality trait that signals to a woman that a man would be a good protector, or that he is respected by other people, is a sign of status. A homeless person who has friends that respect him, that is social status. Or even if he has no friends, as long as it seems to the woman that he has the sort of personality that other people would look up to, then that is social status.
It is a very fluid thing.
March 27, 2014 at 7:56 AM
Those are important distinctions! A genuine compliment is always welcome in every area of life, while a phony “compliment” is an alert to steer clear of the person giving it.
I haven’t heard that definition of social status before. Seems a bit too broad for me. But yes, authentic confidence is always attractive.
March 27, 2014 at 10:37 AM
PHIL: “A man’s social status is important to many women. However, there are many women who don’t care at all about such superficialities, as long as the guy’s not homeless or perennially broke. If women only cared about social status, then 90 percent of men would never get a date.”
That’s right, Phil.
All I look for is a mind, integrity and a solid work ethic. If all the guy owns is a simple one bedroom flat…that’s fine with me. I wouldn’t even care if he had a car or not.
*******
STEVE: “We can boost social status hugely through things like body language, the way we converse… Women do not have this privilege.”
Of course they do.
********
STEVE: “As to what A said, “AND chemistry” is a woman’s way of referring to that erotic field of vision I talked about earlier.”
You think that you have this all figured out, Steve. Even common sense remarks (who, after all, would want to be with someone when there isn’t any chemistry?) have some broader meaning LOL
March 27, 2014 at 12:16 PM
Not really. A woman’s ability to sexually, and I emphasize, sexually, attract a man is 100% down to her looks. Makeup can help a little, but an ugly girl will still be ugly with makeup. No matter how nice a person she is, a man’s sexual response to her will depend on her looks. We don’t get turned on by “integrity” and “work ethic”, no matter how much we may appreciate them on a non-sexual level. But, women do respond sexually to personality traits like confidence. Therefore a man’s sexual attractiveness is fluid and changeable, a woman’s is not.
“Even common sense remarks (who, after all, would want to be with someone when there isn’t any chemistry?) have some broader meaning LOL”
It is indeed common sense to think that women would want to be with partners they find sexually attractive. That is, men who they respond to viscerally. A man who appreciates “integrity” will at most want this trait in a woman he finds sexually attractive. And by sexually attractive I mean that the idea of sex with the girl doesn’t repulse him. A fat and ugly 70 year old woman who is kind will not be an adequate partner.
It is the same with women. “Integrity” and others they want in men they find attractive. They cannot help who they find attractive, and that is exactly what chemistry means. It really is common sense, this is a long-winded explanation of something that everybody should instinctually know already.
A woman may go out with a man who has all her “shopping-list” traits. And yet, she leaves the date saying “Ah, there was no chemistry, no spark, I just didn’t feel it.” The translation is that the man was not sexually attractive. I note at this point something I have said before, and man’s sexual attractiveness is a combination of many things other than his looks. This is in contrast to women, whose sexual attractiveness resides solely in their looks.
Men don’t understand this disconnect because we look at it from our limited paradigm. When a woman talks about a “nice guy” she is not referring necessarily to respectfulness. The “bad boy” probably shouldn’t be called a bad boy either, because chances are he does not treat the woman badly. The difference between the two is that the former is an approval-seeking puppy dog and the latter is a man who offers an invitation into the adventure that is HIS life. The former asks “Please, give me a little bit of space so that I can fit into your life”.
Again, it is not a politically correct thing to say, but in the bio-mechanics of attraction there is a clear dominance-submission play. Men and women may be equals professionally, but not in dating. That is science, not opinion. Have you ever noticed how women revert to a kind of child-like state around men they are in love with?
The “bad boy” is not bad at all. He just obeys the rules of nature, and the other guy doesn’t,
March 28, 2014 at 6:14 AM
Steve, man, you are thinking way too much into this.
March 28, 2014 at 10:26 AM
QUOTE:” Have you ever noticed how women revert to a kind of child-like state around men they are in love with?”
No, I haven’t noticed that. What does this look like?
March 28, 2014 at 2:32 PM
Yes, even women who are serious and almost a bit man-like in both their professional lives and with friends.
Here is an example. I remember a sturdy lawyer I dated who seemed to want to discuss politics on the first date. On the third we played pool, and she was dancing around the table like a kid, using the pool stick to make her nose blue, and making cute animal-faces when I teased her on it. This man-like creature had transformed into a child right before my eyes. This is not a bad thing, in fact it is the best indicator that a woman is falling for you.
There are many other examples. The woman’s voice inflections start to go up instead of down. She starts getting more giggly being conscious of it…
The beautiful thing is that this happens to even the most serious and masculine women. It is good to know there is a woman there under all that manliness. Turns out she just needs a bit of love.
March 28, 2014 at 8:06 PM
I’d also like to comment that women a vast majority of the time seem unapproachable. I’ve heard a lot of women on my university’s campus complain about being approached when they look busy (which is understandable), being approached when they have their headphones in or are on their phone (texting I’d like to add) or where they are. Not all women are like this I like to add but there is a significant number of woman that are. These are reason that stop me from approaching and a lot of other guys too. We don’t approach out of respect. The times I do tend to approach I find women seem disinterested which is fine.
There is also the fact that a lot of really great guys in my opinion are just starting not to care and stop approaching. It doesn’t seem to be out of bitterness, but more out of they seem more interested in their hobbies (which should also be fine). Some guys just really don’t see a point to dating (or they view it as trouble or an unecessary hassel or too much drama in some cases) and some guys just have been rejected a lot by women who look attractive, average and unattractive so they have just given up or taken a break for a while.
Seeing how I’m ace I’m starting to approach less to the point where I rarely approach at all. I have female friends and yeah dating is pretty great. Just lately I haven’t started to see what dating a woman could give me that I don’t already have or could reasonably find someplace else. I am a very busy guy majoring in the sciences. So I don’t have time to see a girlfriend (if I had one) as much as most people tend to see their significant others. With hobbies and interests I can put them down and then pick them up when I have time. It seems unfair to do this to a woman who I’d be dating.
A girlfriend would be really really nice and great, especially if it turns long term and I can spend the rest of my life with her. However, I just don’t necessarily feel like I need one to be happy, fill a hole in my life or to complete my life. A lot of guys are also starting to think this way from what I’ve noticed and dating really just isn’t that big of a deal to them. If they find someone then they find someone if they don’t than they don’t. They’d be willing to commit if they found the right girl or more like just happened to stumble upon them because they do like to meet new people.
This wouldn’t help women at all. Though if there is one suggestion I could make is that women should take an initiative in finding and asking out men they find attractive and interesting. There are a lot of great guys out there who wouldn’t mind a woman approaching (some guys are jerks and may be rude about being approached consider that as a bullet dodged). The thing is if finding a long lasting relationship or soul mate is pretty much a numbers game (as I hate to say it but it is sort of true), that nobody is playing then we’ll see a lot less people dating.
March 29, 2014 at 7:21 AM
Steve, I think “A” was being sarcastic.
Didn’t pick up on that, huh? :-)
You took the words right out of my mouth, Shadow.
As a writer for singles, I’m actually hearing about more and more men who are saying the same thing–and they seem to be ok with it.
I know I am. I’m content with doing my own thing. I let my writing and other things in my life keep me company.
Could it be that too many women, especially the very pretty ones, have cut their own throat when they let us do all the work (approaching, carrying on the conversation, asking them out, paying for the date. . . .)???
I wonder if the number of people dating has gone down.
It’s amazing–so many women out there who say they are lonely, yet they won’t approach a man.
Heck, they won’t even give him that look of interest, along with a warm, inviting smile.
And that’s all it takes!
Steve Harvey, that joke of a “dating expert,” basically tells women to sit back and let the men do all the work. He tells women that they shouldn’t think about even offering to pay their share of the dinner, because men take it the wrong way.
Say whaaaaat?
The wrong men–the insecure little boys– take it the wrong way.
Real men do not care. In fact, we appreciate it.
I wonder when dating got to be so stupid.
March 29, 2014 at 3:21 PM
If this phenomenon is true, Perry—more people feeling lonely but fewer people dating—it’s a head scratcher. Then again, my experience mirrors yours. I don’t date either; my life is too full right now.
March 29, 2014 at 3:55 PM
For a woman to approach a man is against the biomechanics of mating.
It betrays every single instinct a woman has. It is an absolutely unrealistic expectation.
If you approach a woman, and you get rejected, that is life. It happens to every man, not just you. It has nothing to do with your own personal value, only some women will be ready and others will not.
March 29, 2014 at 4:02 PM
It’s easy to rationalize rejection, Steve. Experiencing it is something else entirely, especially if it is repeatedly. I don’t think women fully appreciate the soul-crushing feeling of rejection that men experience when a woman casually shoos them away.
March 29, 2014 at 4:10 PM
You cannot hope for the world to adapt itself to you, rather you must adapt yourself to the world.
I do not expect women to betray their emotions. I do not expect every woman to accept me romantically or sexually. I understand that I can lose a woman at any point in our relationship. And, I also understand that, no matter how pure my perception of a woman, there is still a chance that she may cheat or disappear at any moment.
Once you understand those dirty truths, once you mentally accept them, you learn to live by them as if it were law. You don’t tear up the pre-nup because of platitudes about “trust”, and a rejection doesn’t ruin the rest of your week.
We all have feelings, and no matter how you rationalize they will always still be there. But, once you understand the inevitability of it all, and you understand that none of this is related to your value as a person, it is easier to confront. For me, a rejection hurts for about 60 seconds. Then, the emotion subside completely. If I lose a girl after 4 months, I will be hurt for a couple of days. But it won’t destroy my life.
March 29, 2014 at 4:17 PM
Glad that works for you, Steve. For better or worse, I am not so casual about rejection. Are you able to transcend that detachment and fully emotionally invest yourself in a relationship or do you maintain that barrier for protection? Personally, if I’m going to be in a relationship, it’s all in or nothing.
April 2, 2014 at 9:06 AM
[NOTE: The comment I’m replying to was removed at the request of the woman who left it.] I am sorry to hear of your plight. Unfortunately, yes, it is all too common for attractive women to feel alone and isolated. And other people just don’t understand how someone so beautiful can have so many challenges. It’s like hearing about the difficulties that millionaires may be facing and saying, “I wish I had those problems!” Yeah, well, if you did have those problems, you’d be a lot more empathetic. I wish you the best, and I hope you find that special guy you’ve been dreaming of.
April 2, 2014 at 9:26 AM
Well – as I continue to read the comments for this year 2014 from women here, I have a bit more to contribute on this matter.
I came out of a relationship Xmas time 2013, and have been actively dating women for 2014 so far. I typically date fairly attractive women – as I consider myself a nice guy interior with an intimidating exterior as told by ex-GF’s who fessed up later. This exterior could be labeled and perceived as a ‘Player’ because I am very confident, articulate, charming, and a very good sense of humour.
My report for 2014 with dating beautiful women for the most part is that WHAT IS UP WITH THE GAMES?? A beautiful woman along outer appearance wise is JUST NOT ENOUGH for a man who’s dated enough beautiful women knowing that the more attractive they are, typically the more emotional issues and drama queen that goes with the package.
So I have learned to look for more of what a beautiful woman can GIVE me in her soul (kindness, generosity, loving, feminine, caring, etc) along with her exterior beauty. This is probably the same dilemma that you women have with ‘Alpha’ Player like men.
But at my age (41) – I am tired of the games beautiful women play. I confess that I date women around the 32 to 35 yr old range (as I look that young physically). But even in the 30’s – there should be some maturity in a growing woman from a state of girlhood.
So I recommend that women lower their shields – make it easier for men that has the confidence to even just say hello to you. Women are SCARED deep down of getting hurt – get over it and become a real woman.
I leave you with a quote that I believe in very much, and live by:
“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” – Rumi
When you have achieved to live your life by this quote, love WILL come easily.
Be well.
Billy
Cambridge, United Kingdom
April 2, 2014 at 11:17 AM
Billy, lots of guys have left comments on this post complaining that beautiful women are stuck up, play games, etc. I have deleted them all because they bitter and mean-spirited. I’m printing yours because it’s honest and straightforward.
That said, this post assumes that the beautiful women who are genuinely interested in finding a good guy are NOT the game-playing drama queens you refer to. And as you mentioned, men are just as guilty of being game-playing drama kings as well.
As you can tell by the comments left here, there are plenty of kind, mature, emotionally healthy women who are single not by choice but because of the dynamics laid out in this article.
If you are or have been “a player,” then you’ve contributed to the challenges faced by these women. However, it sounds like you’re tiring of the game as well, so perhaps that means you’re transitioning from more of a “hunter” to more of a “nice guy.” I hope that’s the case and that you are able to find a good woman in need of a good man to settle down with.
April 2, 2014 at 12:42 PM
[NOTE: The comment Steve is replying to was removed at the request of the woman who left it.] I feel bad saying this, but the rules of the sexual market are disappointing for everyone. At the age of 39, trying to land a doctor is shooting out of one’s league. I am not saying you might not be a great person and so on, but look at the reality of the situation.
We are talking about the class of man that has virtually limitless options. A man with that kind of market value can easily cash in for an attractive woman in her prime who, mind you, can also have a nice personality. For women, beauty and youth are the most important indicators of their sexual value.
All women hit the wall sooner or later. I don’t think any women still survives at 39. For example, look at a picture of Paulina Porizkova in her 40s, in whose prime most men have called a 10. Some may argue she is still attractive, sure, but you can clearly see the decay. Enough to where she has perhaps dropped for a 10 to a 7, purely in terms of physique.
We could go into the whole deal about the important of personality, but we are talking a man with options. A man of this calibre can get an attractive woman who is young and also has a great personality. There is no reason why he should settle for less than the absolute best his status can get him.
This is why it is a good idea for women to marry in their primes. This way, they can get the best possible man. But at 39 getting a doctor to commit past a romp in the sack is a proposition I wouldn’t put my money on.
April 4, 2014 at 10:28 AM
You paint a bleak picture, Steve. I’m inclined to give men (and i’m referring to the “nice guys” here) more credit than that. Yes, men will always be interested in a woman’s looks, but as men get older and (hopefully) mature, they are less inclined to make relationship decisions based solely on looks. in fact, they realize what a recipe for disaster that is.
Even “men with options,” as you put it, want not only a beautiful face but a beautiful heart. And those men who don’t care about personality and character are in for a rude awakening down the line.
In the made-for-TV movie, The Five People You Meet in Heaven, Jon Voight’s character dies and goes to the afterlife where he finds his wife, who had died about a decade earlier. She appears as the beautiful young woman she was when they first met. He asks her to change so that she looks as she did when they were old together. THAT is true beauty, and true love. And that is what women and men of all shapes, sizes and looks dream of experiencing.
April 9, 2014 at 2:37 AM
OK….on to my latest love mishap. This one is odd.
A man actively pursued me for one year and then said something like, “Oh, I’m only interested in you as a friend.” When I asked him why he had pursued me all that time his two word answer was, “Why not?”
He said that at one stage he “did feel love”. However, knowing himself…he realized that he wouldn’t ever be able to live up to it. “Cowardly, but sincerely keeping you in mind I stepped away”.
What on earth is that all about? Not being able to live up to it? Live up to what? He doesn’t think that he can make me happy?
Btw, I don’t believe it. I think he is indeed interested in me as more than a friend because he has consistently acted that way. I wasn’t born yesterday.
I find it rather disturbing. I liked him a lot. I’m having a very hard time communicating with him at all now.
April 9, 2014 at 2:52 AM
That is odd indeed, A. Sounds like a case of cold feet to me.
April 9, 2014 at 3:16 AM
I agree, Phil.
I hadn’t seen him in several years. Last year he got back in touch with me and for one entire year he continually initiated communication with me….chat, Skype, phone etc…and continually asked me to visit him in his city. It was difficult for me to go because of my financial situation and he offered to pay for half the ticket…and he did.
However, prior to going he started to say stuff like the comments above. So, this wasn’t something that started after he saw me. I ignored the comments with the idea that I was going to go there and see for myself what this was all about. Well, I got there and we ended up kissing passionately. He was definitely interested and so was I. Nothing happened other than that even though I slept at his place. The next morning, however, he was having trouble looking me in the eye. I was very hurt and I left without saying much.
Later that evening he messaged me asking if we could have dinner. I accepted and he said that he would contact me in an hour or so to let me know when to meet him. Four hours later I was still waiting. I finally sent him a message saying that I was going to sleep and that I hoped he was OK. The next morning he told me that he had fallen asleep. This wasn’t true because I had been sitting on Facebook talking with another friend and I saw his little green dot flicker on and off. So, he hadn’t been sleeping.
He had clearly chickened out.
I was quite angry because I had flown 3.5 hours to see this man and he had even paid for half the ticket! So, I went over to his place to talk with him about it. (I had a hotel room) When I got there he was extremely nervous. He wasn’t mean or rude or anything…just very nervous. He wasn’t able to express himself at all. At that point he reiterated some of the things he had told me before I got there. “I just like you as a friend.” etc. However, when I told him that I liked him as more than a friend he responded with, “Me, too”. He then said, “If you want us to ever have a chance we’ll need to end this conversation right now.” (Have a chance? I thought he only liked me as a friend!)
I then left and haven’t spoken to him since.
I think it’s cold feet. However, it was APPALLING behavior.
I suppose I willingly stepped right into it. However, if I hadn’t gone I would have always wondered….
I’m very heartbroken over it. I’m not sure what I should do. I should probably just ignore him. Any advice would be much appreciated.
April 9, 2014 at 3:24 AM
Weird. He’s obviously lying and concealing something important, A. Would you really consider being in a relationship with someone who is evasive and untruthful?
April 9, 2014 at 3:39 AM
Do you think he’s concealing something or just being an immature jerk?
He’s clearly not fit for a relationship with anyone. I don’t think it’s a case of another woman. No way.
I think he has a coke problem, to be honest.
It was very disappointing.
April 9, 2014 at 3:41 AM
Probably both.
April 9, 2014 at 7:57 AM
I guess I was just so desperate for male company that I thought it wouldn’t hurt to give it a whirl.
Most men avoid me and even here I think some of that was in play. He thought I was too good for him.
April 9, 2014 at 12:26 PM
Sounds like he’s right, A.
May 20, 2014 at 3:29 AM
Dear Phil & readers of this blog,
First of all, can someone PLEASE answer for me the following 3 questions:
1) What does it mean when a guy tells you he likes you?
2) What does it mean when a guy calls you beautiful?
3) What does it mean when a guy winks at you?
I am asking these questions because there was someone who said that to me……That someone is a person who I think of all the time. He occupies my thoughts, memories and the fact that he is overseas, maims my life. I have a friend who is in contact with him but I don’t know if he would remember me.
What is the meaning of this?
May 20, 2014 at 6:45 AM
Sanya, all three of those things can mean that the guy has honorable intentions and genuinely wants to get to know you better as a human being, or that he’s only trying to seduce you. It depends on what kind of guy he is. Unfortunately, there’s no easy litmus test to determine that, which is why it’s so maddening for women to try to understand a guy’s intentions.
June 19, 2014 at 7:44 PM
Dear Phil & readers of this blog?
I am really shocked & confused.
At one point, a guy tells you he does not like commitment. 7 months later, you find out he is in a relationship with someone. What could be the meaning of all this??
June 20, 2014 at 6:02 AM
Alvina, when a man OR woman tells someone they do not like commitment, it typically means that he or she does not want to commit to the person they’re telling that to. When they later find someone they are willing to commit to, they do.
June 20, 2014 at 4:02 PM
Thank you Phil for answering my question and clearing up my confusion…..The person who said that to me clearly was disgusting…..Why did he keep hitting on me if he wasn’t willing to commit? Was I not good enough??
June 20, 2014 at 4:16 PM
Alvina, if men only hit on women they wanted to explore a long-term relationship with, the “hit rate” would drop by about 99.4 percent. When hunters hit on women, it is not a long-term relationship they are after, and it has nothing to do with whether the women are “good enough.”
June 21, 2014 at 12:40 AM
I would say that even hunters get into relationships if the chemistry is enough. Perhaps not long-term relationships, but for a few months to a year. A man can do one-night-stands all year, and then he finds a girl that is amazing and he can’t bring himself to not see her again. Players do sometimes fall in love, just that the quality that it takes is higher, because they are numb to most.
June 21, 2014 at 6:24 AM
True, Steve. But for the purposes of responding to Alvina and her situation, I wanted to keep it simple. There are always exceptions.
June 21, 2014 at 2:10 PM
Hello, Steve I do not get what you mean by “Players do sometimes fall in love, just that the quality that it takes is higher, because they are numb to most.” can you please explain
June 22, 2014 at 2:56 AM
I don’t mean looks. A lot of players have been with very beautiful girls, and then may fall in love with a girl that is much less physically than the best they have had. It is about a certain personality type that clicks with men, and one that they rarely come across. Most girls are cookie-cutter, they try to put across a certain persona, they hide themselves up, their true mannerisms (fake smiles etc.), their ideas and their vulnerabilities. So many girls are scared that their true self is “not enough” that they skew it into an superficial front that looks like every other girl the man has ever come into contact with.
There are very few girls that are truly themselves, sweet and vulnerable. Feminism makes women behave more like men, which is fine in the labour market but don’t expect a man to fall in love with a female version of himself. Girliness is not fashion or a persona to imitate, it is what a lot of girls had when they were children and they lost through education. A joy of life that you see in their eyes, a childlike innocence that makes the man want to protect.
Men don’t want a “woman.” Class is the antithesis of quality. Class means fakeness.
A player who comes across a girl like this knows he has something special and doesn’t let it go, and that is when he falls in love. You may disagree, but this is what will effectively take place in the real world.
June 22, 2014 at 7:42 PM
Thank you for elaborating the statement for me, Steve. But I must tell you that I am not the person who does something to make myself superficial. It is not my style. If people accept me for who or what I am, GREAT! If not then I am not gonna force them to.
As for that dirty player who was hitting on me and telling me that he “likes me and that I am cute, but he does not like commitment; he only likes to have fun that’s why he doesn’t have a girlfriend.” (read my older posts from November/December last year on this blog)……I don’t give a toss about him anymore.
July 28, 2014 at 9:20 AM
All my life I have only attracted hunters and players…and the guys that I’ve had a relationship with eventually started to treat me like crap… it’s frustrating and disappointing that I don’t ever meet anyone nice; I have NEVER had a nice guy approach.
July 28, 2014 at 9:24 AM
I’m sorry to hear that you are stuck in this pattern, Blossom. If you scroll through the comments, you will find some insights and suggestions that I hope you will find helpful. Good luck with making good things happen from here on out.
September 22, 2014 at 3:04 PM
Hey Phil, I know it has been a long time but this post is specifically for girls like Jennifer.
(Extract of Jennifer s post)
also ive noticed that there is A LOT of hostlity from men i meet up with….they get angry and just want to lash out on me or put me down abuse me belittle and degrade me.i find this odd because im a beautiful nice sweet girl…why do they enjoy fighting with me and rejecting me?
This ultimately comes down to self esteem. When a guy does this to you he is actively trying to lower your self esteem, so that he can manipulate and control you.
( You can probably tell the difference between a cheeky tease and a downright insult)
They do this so that you wont feel good enough for anyone else. Certain guys do this because they don’t know how to interact socially with pretty girls in a normal way.(From Steves info) It is a disgusting underhanded tactic to use when it comes to dating, so this should be an immediate red flag when it comes to working out what a guys personality is like.Essentially it is about a lack of confidence and self esteem on the guys part.
Now im not religious, but if you ever feel angry or frustrated I seriously recommend trying Buddhist mediation, it can really help you to calm and get rid of negative emotions, and to get in touch with your true self.
PS- I hope you read this Jennifer. And Phil, the positive internal shifts I have had since the last posts have been great.
September 22, 2014 at 3:23 PM
I will add to Ian’s comment that you should keep your distance from any guy who projects hostility at all costs. That is a huge red flag and nobody needs an angry guy in their life.
Ian, I’m glad you’re experiencing some positive results.
September 29, 2014 at 11:57 PM
Very interesting Article which I found searching for “Why do Beautiful women struggle with men?” I read many of the comments and replies which echo what I have experienced.
I will add my thoughts: It is difficult to seek solace in all the challenges that you face as a “Beautiful Women’ when you actually ‘feel’ quite normal. Despite all the lifetime of very clear evidence that suggests you belong in that category, you ‘feel’ normal and are ‘confronted’ constantly. Furthermore, part of the punishment for being in the (Unspoken….) Beautiful ‘group’, is to be told repeatedly that you aren’t part of it. You obviously ‘make’ people pay attention to you. If men are competitive or resentful, you are obviously, ‘causing’ it, etc. etc. There is little chance anyone is going to say “You’re doing nothing wrong, it is the world reacting to you.”
High attraction equals high emotions be it sexual attraction, resentment, jealousy etc. Attraction means exactly that: You ATTRACT attention. It is not designated exclusively to sexual attraction. It is “everyone notices you immediately and feel some high emotion of some sort” If your looks are ‘dramatic’, the reaction is ‘dramatic’ regardless of what you wear or say or how you sit or stand etc. My point being that ‘blaming’ the women for the issues is extremely common. You can’t fix the problem if the (REAL, Unspoken) problem is ‘You are too beautiful and get too much attention and I seriously resent you for it.’ You keep doing your best to prevent it and often-times being nice only enhances the resentment and passive-aggressive put-downs. Clearly, the more special you are, the harder people will try to convince you how special you’re ‘not’. It can be painful.
Secondly I wanted to say that when we are categorizing nice men vs. hunters, there is some truth to that, of course. Men organically fall into those groups. I agree with that. I will add, though, that Nice Guys can BECOME Hunters when put in the position of dealing with a woman who he thinks is very beautiful, is very sexually attracted to and/or intimidated by. The same man can treat two women entirely different based on his perception of her beauty and, perhaps, his conscience or subconscious idea of how he is ‘supposed’ to behave with her. “It’s different with you…” says the man who objectifies you, competes with you, expects much more sexually and is just very different with you than he was with his less attractive ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. If a Beautiful women picks the nice guy, he can sometimes migrate (accidentally or otherwise) over to the Hunter-Owner side. I have dealt with and DO deal with all the aforementioned shenanigans on the regular throughout my life, despite feeling ‘normal’. If you have that (Perceived by the majority) ‘thing’ , it’s sometimes a challenge to prove you have anything else. You can enjoy a woman’s beauty and still have a meaningful, real connection with her. Probably not common, but I think it can happen. (wishful thinking?)
Lastly, I looked this article up because I am currently very much interested in a man who is gun-shy of me. He doesn’t believe my affection is genuine. He thinks I am stunning ,sexy and smart. He is learning that I am, indeed, a good person. I am hanging in there and willing to part peacefully if it just can’t be. His pride is on the line here (in his mind) I feel. He pulls away but gives indication that I am very special. He reminds me of a child that cries and feigns trying to be put down but *really* wants Mommy to hold him. I am going to hang in there and hopefully he will feel comfortable with me.
Any tips on how to handle this situation with the man I’d like to get closer to would be awesome. I am thinking I need to be consistent but let it go at his pace. I am so anxious for him to know I REALLY care about him! Care about him outside of how it affects me. In fact, my telling him that (I am Ok with whatever relationship is comfortable for you including friends) may have sent me back a few steps. I was attempting to reassure him that he is safe either way, even though I feel romantic toward him. I am willing to wait (not forever, but wait) for this man. He is brilliant (truly), very business savvy, not at all intimidated professionally. He loves Beauty like most men, but we have discussed it and the fact that it is just a ‘thing’. Like a car or handbag or house. A fun thing? Yes! Of course. YOLO, right. Go get your pretty on! Enjoy! but at the end-of the day, Beauty is just a ‘thing’. I have told him I feel this way, which I do. He has indicated that he appreciates my appearance very much but agrees it is the substance of the relationship that matters. I still believe strongly that he is concerned that I am not attracted to him physically. Especially since I have dated the “Male supermodels” (who can, ironically be just as insecure and cruel) I AM attracted to him!! because I adore *him*. I find him very attractive. I am a communicator (You don’t say!, haha). He is more reserved (only with regards to communicating how he *feels* about me, about love etc.) and therefore I am left to fill in the gaps! :)
I prattled on, but would love input on how I might deal with this man. I could fall in love with him, but his walls may not come down. Not sure yet:)
Wonderful Article and comments. Thanks so much:)
September 30, 2014 at 10:59 PM
You’re quite right, CJ. Many beautiful women are bewildered by the attention and reactions they get from both men and women. Beauty can indeed be a cross to bear.
Yes, I mentioned in the article that some nice guys may aspire to be hunters but are too insecure to act like they really want to with women. Every individual is a different story so it’s impossible to make sweeping generalizations.
As far as the guy you like, you wrote, “I am so anxious for him to know I REALLY care about him!” That’s simple. Tell him exactly that! You say you are a communicator and it sounds like you’ve already laid the groundwork with him so . . . just flat out tell him! By telling him you’re okay with being friends, you’re actually planting more doubt in his mind. Be straightforward and let the circumstances take care of themselves.
Besides, why offer something that don’t exist? That just unnecessary muddies the water. As I wrote in the article:
Good luck!
October 12, 2014 at 1:52 PM
Thank you for this. I have been single now for many years, especially after I ‘bloomed’ in my chosen field. As a young woman, I was courted by modeling agencies, yet I was not interested in that as a career. Everybody told me I was beautiful, they still do, but I rarely feel beautiful because of the way men seem interested, and then run away. I always thought there was something wrong with me. Your article explains a lot, and of course, I NEVER thought my problems stemmed from being beautiful, because conceited is the LAST thing that I am.
October 12, 2014 at 2:01 PM
I’m glad you found the article so meaningful and helpful, Beverly. Perhaps now that you understand the dynamics at work, you can experience better outcomes.
October 12, 2014 at 5:36 PM
Thanks for replying, Phil- as some of the other ladies have made clear, just TRY bringing this problem up with your friends. No way am I gonna go there! I guess we just need to be the hunters ourselves, and possibly even relentlessly so…kind of takes the fun out of it, for both the men and the women. It happens every time…I get the eye from someone i’m interested in, I can swear that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. But then he runs off and chats with everyone else in the room, peeping at me from time to time. Once in a while, a brief affair, him looking like a deer in the headlights the whole time…can’t seem to fill his eyes enough, and then BAM! He’s run off with Ms. Average Jane. Yep, people say I’m a beauty, and that I am intimidating, because I’m also sharp witted and talented. And different. Do I need duct tape and a trunk? Geez….
October 12, 2014 at 5:39 PM
Yes, beauty can be a lonely place to live, Beverly. I sure hope you find what you’re looking for, and the sooner the better!
October 12, 2014 at 10:20 PM
I hear you, Beverly. I’m 50 now and I haven’t had any type of relationship with a man in 16-20 years because of this. I can’t handle the kind of rejection you’re talking about.
I just recently told a friend how I felt about him and a few hours later he blocked me on Facebook. I know that he liked me, too. Thankfully, nothing too serious had happened between us. It was still horribly painful though.
People say, “Just get back in the ring and give it another go.” It’s hard though when you’ve had nothing but failures.
October 13, 2014 at 1:58 PM
“Do I need duct tape and a trunk? Geez….”
Now that was funny.
No, just show your interest and approach like men do.
It would be refreshing.
And, yeah, you will get a lot of clueless men, but at least you are still trying.
Just a smile and that look works wonders a lot of the times.
You can do it anywhere.
And if he doesn’t respond, rinse and repeat.
October 13, 2014 at 10:12 PM
It doesn’t work, Perry.
What she’s saying is correct. You know that there’s something there. You know that the man is very interested. However, the most you’ll get is a very brief affair.
That’s it. (I’m lucky if I can get a man to kiss me)
When he gets serious with a woman it won’t be with you. It will be with the Plain Jane.
I think the song had it correct:
‘A pretty woman makes her husband look small
And very often causes his downfall
As soon as he marries her then she starts
To do the things
that will break his heart’
I say…let them be happy with their Plain Jane women.
October 15, 2014 at 1:48 PM
It would work on me. It would work on a guy like Phil. It would work on guys I have known in the past. . . .
It works on men who aren’t little boys, A.
By doing what I suggested, it also weeds them out.
Correct me if you think I am wrong, but I think you ladies focus too much on the negative to see the positive.
“Mountains out of molehills.”
Plus, you all don’t even show enough men your interest.
On a regular basis, men have to approach women until they find “the one.”
They face one rejection after another. They go out with a “nut job” after another. . . .
You ladies aren’t doing anything close to that.
I’m, sorry, but you aren’t.
As a writer, I like to go to the mall and watch people. Time after time I have noticed women not even glancing towards a man, while men are looking.
Many of you are also shallow. If he isn’t tall and handsome, he isn’t the one for you.
Then you turn around and say how tough it is out there.
Now maybe you are different, A…I am just saying.
October 15, 2014 at 6:06 PM
True, Perry, except for one thing. If women are shallow for only being attracted to tall, handsome guys, then men are just as shallow for only being attracted to beautiful women.
October 15, 2014 at 11:23 PM
I don’t go after tall and handsome. I go after the man who is interested in me AND with whom I feel chemistry. He doesn’t have to be tall and handsome to do this. I also don’t care about money. A strong work ethic is enough.
I actually think that perhaps I’m aiming too low. I have been told numerous times that I aim for men who are ‘beneath’ me and that this is why they run. The men themselves have even told me that. Perhaps I should look for “tall and handsome”. I might end up a lot happier. However, up to now I have not met a “tall and handsome” man to whom I am romantically attracted. They’ve all been the “average Joes” and I have failed miserably with them.
Also, most men my age look much older than I do. This is a bit of a problem.
November 5, 2014 at 7:59 PM
I’m glad I found this blog.
For years I thought that there was something wrong with me. The only men who approached me were players or worse. For the life of me I don’t know why I never attract nice guys.
At my ten-year high school reunion a couple of my old male friends told me how they were in love with me in high school… And yet in high school I could hardly get a date?!
I am trying not to settle for the wrong guy but what am I to do if the right guy won’t approach me?
November 5, 2014 at 8:19 PM
I’m glad you now know what’s going on in men’s minds, Marina. Better late than never. What are you to do? It’s been suggested in the comments on this post that women simply engage men in friendly conversation. That’s a very nice ice-breaker. That’s one thing you can do. Most relationships these days start out online, so that’s another avenue. Although many are quick to point out that there are a lot of hunters online. Another thing to do is join a singles club that stages activities for its members. Try meet-ups too. Just put yourself out there in safe situations and see if anything developed. Good luck!
November 9, 2014 at 12:40 PM
I wish it were more, but of all my years, only two women showed an initiative towards me.
One was at an outlet mall, where she looked right at me and smiled. She gave me that look. If you know what I mean.
Some women may think that he will then think of it as sex. Only a real moron would. So what does it matter? You can just weed him out. But I think nearly all guys wouldn’t think this.
Another time was when she commented to me about my shirt. I said thank you, and then she held out her hand to shake mine, and said, “Hi, my name is Toni.” We started talking right there. She suggested that we continue the conversation over pasta that week.
I wish more women would do more approaching. It’s so refreshing.
November 9, 2014 at 12:51 PM
I wish so too, Perry. The problem is that when it does happen, it tends to take men by surprise, which can make them feel a bit disoriented for a few moments, which does not make for a good first impression!
December 1, 2014 at 3:11 PM
I have actually been approached and asked out by several gorgeous women. As an ambitious, progressive minded, sensitive man, I talk to whomever seems approachable. Typically, very attractive women are more jaded from being hit on all the time. They tend to have very negative body language, which makes me not want to talk with them. Why would I approach a negative person? I make it a point to always have extremely positive body language, and I approach women who have positive body language as well. I will obviously approach a gorgeous women who exhibit positive body language as well. Just a few weeks ago, I did just that. The woman was obviously the most beautiful woman in the room. She knew it and everyone else knew it as well. She also had one of the most kind and approachable dispositions I have seen.
So, here’s my advice to attractive women: Don’t blame nice guys for not “manning up” to talk to you when your body language is completely untactful and unapproachable. Have positive, kind, inviting body language and nice guys will love to talk to you. Hunters are also generally more attracted to women with negative body language as they represent more of a challenge.
December 1, 2014 at 6:21 PM
Thank you for your comments, Tyler. Yes, a few women in these comments have acknowledged that they have become more negative and less approachable as a defense mechanism after being continually hit on by hunters. It was an “Aha!” moment for them to realize that they were unwittingly driving away good men by their attitude and body language.
December 2, 2014 at 12:37 AM
Tyler is probably correct.
I think a friendly, outgoing disposition helps a lot. My problem is that I am a geeky, serious, sober-minded introvert by nature. (I took the Myers-Briggs test and came out as an INTJ. Apparently less than one percent of women fall into this category.)
A very astute man once told me that these two things together – my physical appearance and my personality – make men very uncomfortable. They would rather go with something that they’re more familiar with.
December 2, 2014 at 6:03 AM
Now that you’re aware of this dynamic, A, have you attempted to adopt a friendlier, more approachable vibe? Or is that just not comfortable for you?
December 2, 2014 at 6:23 AM
I don’t see myself as unfriendly. Yes, I’m geeky, serious, and sober-minded. However, I am not unfriendly. Men just seem to find me odd. They may be attracted to me initially. However, they quickly decide that I’m rather unusual for a woman and that ends it. I am not what they are expecting and this is what baffles them.
This is something that I cannot change about myself though. I cannot stop being who I am.
So, my bad luck with men is probably more than simply my physical appearance. It’s the combination of these two things.
December 2, 2014 at 6:28 AM
While you may not be able (or even want to) change the core of who you are, A, it’s always possible to modify the way you interact with people. That’s why Dale Carnegie’s “How to Win Friends and Influence People” has sold millions of copies over the years. There are a variety of effective methods to improve one’s social graces.
December 2, 2014 at 6:30 AM
Someone told me the other day that I’m “too picky”. I’ve heard this before and it always puzzles me.
Are they suggesting that I entertain the idea of being with a man in whom I am not romantically interested, with whom I have no chemistry? This seems to be what this comment is hinting at. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
December 2, 2014 at 6:35 AM
Agreed . . . for the most part. There’s a difference in being so picky that you don’t consider anyone beyond a first impression, and being “picky” once you really get to know someone. It may be wise to be less picky for the former and more picky for the latter.
December 3, 2014 at 6:29 PM
“Man up, Nice Guys”….oh have I manned up and I have been rejected a lot. The reason why nice guys are so reluctant to man up is the fear of rejection. Trust, I have pursued various women, all of them desirable, all to get rejected from reasons such as her liking someone else and then they break up a month later and her telling me I make people feel sorry for me, another one going back to her ex-boyfriend for the 4th time and her parents saying I’m too overweight to date her, and the last girl I was chasing was the worst, she never did anything to push the conversation forward, turned down me asking her out, her making out with one of my friends, and also my friend overheard her telling her friend that she wouldn’t date me because I don’t go to the gym as much as her and she doesn’t like it when my hair is long, and now shes dating this military brat. Again, trust, there are nice guys that man up, and I am part of that “rare” breed, but its hard to conjure up the courage to become a hunter from all the rejections. And Ive had my moments of going up to gorgeous women, all to be rejected by the “I have a boyfriend” line. Its ironic though, all my friends are praising about how much guts I have to even go up to random women, but yet I’m the one that’s still single. I may not bring a lot of “excitement” to a relationship that most women want, but I can provide for and be down for a woman as much as she would be down for me. It’s a cruel world, but such is life.
December 4, 2014 at 8:54 AM
I feel you pain, Superior. Kudos to you for having the courage to keep asking women out. However, I must take exception to your comment that “its hard to conjure up the courage to become a hunter from all the rejections.” If anything, it takes courage NOT to be a hunter. Rather, it takes courage to present yourself to the world (and to women) as who you authentically are. That’s the only way to lay the foundation for a successful relationship.
One more thing. As painful as it is, it can be helpful to listen to other’s criticisms of you. If you don’t think a criticism has any merit, fine. But if you detect a grain of truth in it, take it to heart and use it to become a better human being. It is incumbent upon all of us to continually improve ourselves in every way: emotionally, mentally, intellectually, spiritually, physically. You dramatically improve the odds of attracting and meeting the right woman for you when you stop trying to find the right person and start trying to be the right person.
December 9, 2014 at 7:58 PM
I am a reasonably attractive man in my mid fifties and I didn’t marry till I was 42 and had been out with a fair few ladies over 24 years and I think I have a somewhat different thing to say compared to the comments I’ve read.I have never been a really confident man(quite shy in my early manhood)and yet I dated and contemplated dating quite a number of very attractive ladies-I was not a hunter at all though many definitely thought I was from comments I heard at times and this reputation was not helpful at times.I remained single because I lived in a fairly remote location that would be too difficult or unsuitable for many.I noticed that many very attractive ladies (not all)were generally more difficult to have long term relationships with-less easy going one could say.I have always treated ladies respectfully and completely equal yet a high percentage of the very attractive ladies I believe were somewhat spoiled(by parents and society probably? because of their looks unfortunately)They were often a bit or more of a prime dona.I and I know many others(females at least as equally) have also noticed this about many very attractive ladies.Their more average looking sisters and friends are generally much easier going,Its hardly their fault-they have so often been favored that they are often a little tricky to get along with in a close relationship and they don’t realize it because its so often normal for society to not tell them generally speaking and it is so a part of them from the beginning of their lives that they can’t believe if ever told(and God help the person who does )Most males work this out early in life,even as young boys though never articulated such thought s mostly but have a sense of it.The hunters could not care less as they only want the beautiful body but many men are wary even if they can’t put it into words why.I never really took caution despite not been a really confident man simply because I have a reckless nature in many regards(I was exceptional at football though I was a smallish very late developed boy with a low level of ballskills -all because I was too stupid or reckless to worry about getting hurt)Of course this doesn’t apply to all very attractive females-just very common ,so don’t take offence,just consider the possibility.
December 10, 2014 at 7:43 PM
Hi, Graham. Yes, I imagine that a percentage of attractive women are used to being “spoiled” just as talented athletes are coddled since youth. That said, two different men may have two very different opinions about the same woman based on who (the men) are, what they look like and how they conduct themselves. In other words, a man who comes across as meek and submissive is going to get a different reaction from women than a man who projects confidence and playfulness. Both men and women tend to create self-fulfilling prophecies based on preconceived notions of how they think the opposite sex will respond to them. They then present their conclusions as fact rather than heavily-biased opinion. There are so many factors in play that such interactions tend to be far more complex than they appear to be.
I’m glad you have a good, solid marriage. Thanks for commenting!
February 8, 2015 at 1:39 PM
In my sad search for an answer I ”googled” the question above and came across this amazing blog, almost every single of the points described here apply (at least in my life) I don’t understand why I can not find a nice guy who can appreciate me for who I am.
All my life I felt I was invisible to men, I grew up thinking I was an ugly girl who guys despised, about 3 years ago all that changed completely, I started working out, my physical appearance changed as well as my way of thinking as I am more mature now. I know am starred at every single place I go to, I even started doing some modeling, yes, that may sound very nice, but the truth is I am very lonely, guys don’t approach me at all, apparently, they are intimidated or so I’ve been told by my friends, and I’ve even been told the stupid phrase ”you’re too pretty so I thought you had a boyfriend”.
I’ll be humbly honest, at first all the attention was flattering, but it’s gotten old, and it’s worthless (in my opinion) I don’t want to be alone, what is even stupider about this situation is that I’ve never been attracted to your typical ”body-builder/baby face” type of guy, no! I truly want an intelligent man, a geek (if you will) with whom I can talk about anything, I’m attracted to the ”average” looking guy with glasses, in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt taking it easy after working long hours, but that guy won’t approach me, now, here’s the glaring contradiction, I won’t approach him either because in order for me to like a guy I need to hear him speak first.
I also wanted to add that next year I will earn my bachelor’s in neuroscience and will apply to Dental school, that being said, isn’t that what most men want? a pretty-down to earth woman with a brain? someone who is not a burden? I haven’t dated anyone at all for one year now.
February 8, 2015 at 2:18 PM
I’m sorry you are feeling hurt and alone, Aquetzali. It might be helpful to think about why you need to have a guy speak first. It sounds like that is significantly limiting your options. Does it really matter who speaks up first once a conversation gets started?
You may also find some helpful hints by looking through the comments on this post. Many good suggestions have been made. I wish you luck!
February 9, 2015 at 12:00 AM
Oh my gosh a lot of this is sadly true!! I can attract the fittest, handsomest guys for a date or hookup, but then I never hear back. Even less douche-y guys treat me like a conquest and proceed to date some other girl. I think I am at a higher risk of loss, because in addition to being pretty, I’m also a bit on the gullible side. Major player bait!!
February 9, 2015 at 8:39 AM
Well, now that you’re read this and understand the dynamics at work, Sara, you are already wiser and less gullible!
February 9, 2015 at 3:30 PM
Yes. :)
March 20, 2015 at 9:28 AM
I want to add my bit.
Like all the girls here, I also do not think I am awesomely beautiful. Just saying.
Nevertheless, I have dated men whom all my friends thought were ugly, but I dated them because I expected to find a caring loving man, and after giving my heart away, I had it chucked back at me.
It turned out that those men now were so confident that they went out to try and see if they could score more pretty women.
I left them, of course, and invariably, each and every one of them are still single. Like me, I know, but that is not my point :-D
So, my theory is that we are all just trying to make it and find happiness, but, yes, the blog is very accurate.
March 20, 2015 at 10:59 AM
Sheila, I hope you find what you are looking for. When you do, everything that happened before that won’t matter one bit. The best of luck to you!
March 21, 2015 at 2:06 AM
I have come to believe that the better looking men are the best bets because they feel better about themselves, usually. Average looking men often have a lot of insecurities…especially around very attractive women. They will NEVER feel good enough.
People need to play within their league. You may really like that average looking guy…but he’s never going to feel comfortable with you. I have learned this lesson the hard way.
Btw, this also goes for female friends. Very attractive women should be careful about trusting plain or unattractive women.
March 21, 2015 at 8:16 AM
To a large extent, I would agree with you, a. However, there are plenty of exceptions to these “rules” and I would be cautious about making assumptions about someone too quickly.
March 21, 2015 at 9:58 AM
I came across this blog while searching online for another topic. Women and men both have a difficult time understanding what they want, the order in which they want those traits and what is more important in their opinion.
I was married 13 yrs. We dated 2 yrs prior. We have a great child that gets equal love from myself and her Mom. Both parents work at being friendly and communication. In a week, our duaghter spends 3/4 split as we all live close enough but not too close. Where am I going with this?
Me: early 40s, decent looking (good enough to date women 25-50 that are 7 and up for their respected ages).
I have no problem striking up a conversation. Even if in passing. I saw a woman recently talking about not wanting to walk out in the rain. When I walked by her, I made a light joking comment. She smiled and laughed. Then she noticed that I had items for my daughter. Smile went away and that was that.
The women that I have talked with, either as a friend or co-worker, all state that I am a great catch and it’s so hard to find that guy that can be in their words, ‘sexy, funny and sweet.’ But they for the most part share the position that even though I have this ‘hotness’ that attracks women, whatever that’s supposed to mean, once they find out I’m a single father who is actually involved, they lose interest.
Listening to women, they want that guy that makes them hot, carries himself well, has confidence without being a jerk. Has a caring side and great with kids. Has a job and is a fun person.
As far as women that dance together, hang out in large groups, it’s called blocking. Fake the confidence if you need to but approach and don’t show fear. Doesn’t always work but that’s what you have to do… play the stupid game if you want to be in the game.
Listening to my guy friends, men want a woman that is sexy, fun, smart, has passion and knows what she wants. But when they meet a woman who seems to know what she wants, the answer is usually but not always, ‘she’s bossy, high maintenance, picky, etc.’
We end up speaking out of two different body parts and wonder why we can’t find someone. Stop the games, be adults, speak. Men, don’t wait two or more days to send a text thanking a woman for a good date. Women, don’t wait two or more days before you respond to the guy’s text. Games. Don’t have time for them so I’ve stopped playing. Gives me more time with family, friends and myself after a long day working and raising a great daughter.
March 21, 2015 at 10:10 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, Fred. I’m glad to hear you and your ex have put your daughter first and that you all get along. I can relate.
I think you might be making an assumption about women losing interest in you when they find out you’re a father. I’ve learned that I can’t possibly know what a woman is thinking until I ask her straight out. I think a whole lot of women would love that you’re a devoted dad. That speaks well of your character.
March 21, 2015 at 11:20 AM
Hey Phil,
I can understand and empathise with a’s feeling about “playing within your league”, given her previous experience with guys, but I strongly disagree with that statement.
Take this couple for instance:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/man-crowned-champion-punching-above-4041107
A guy might might feel good about himself, but it does not mean that he is good relationship material.It’s ultimately gonna come down to how comfortable the guy is in his own skin. I had chances in the past to date some very pretty girls, but because of reasons listed in this article I didn’t bother. It was a real wake-up call reading some of Steve”s comments.
I’m not going out of my way to disagree with a, the point she made about the lack of self-confidence in average guys was very valid. These guys can improve that aspect of themselves, but many choose to stay within their comfort zone and miss out on great opportunities.
I strongly believe that an average looking guy with rock-solid self-confidence (not arrogance) will be much more attractive than a good-looking guy who is insecure.
March 21, 2015 at 7:03 PM
Love the example on the link, Ian! Yes, my understanding is that women looking for a serious relationship will be much more attracted to who a guy is rather than what he looks like. An average-looking, kindhearted man with self-confidence and a great sense of humor has a great chance with any woman.
March 29, 2015 at 4:59 AM
What has happened in this world that people are listening to “relationship coaches” to tell them how to think -act- respond to someone interested in them rather than just being straight up honest and straightforward? They play these stupid games and abide by some “coaches” instruction on how to text-how to answer-how many days to wait to respond and all such similar bull. Are people not able to think and act for themselves? I’ve been out of the “game” a long time but I’ve never seen such ridiculous bs by so many.
March 29, 2015 at 7:41 AM
I’ve never understood why people follow such inane rules either. I can’t imagine that any healthy, built-to-last relationships started out on such a flimsy foundation.
April 26, 2015 at 6:41 PM
Hi Phil,
I enjoyed this piece and the comments thoroughly. Another upsetting incident with a cruel man led me to this page. So I ask…
Might it be smart for us to focus on a subset of men in the world? Say those men who are into Female Led Relationships, Goddess worship, and Female Superiority? Not that the “good guys” within that set are necessarily easy to find either. And let’s not discriminate and believe that they will be all weird, creepy kinksters. There are all kinds in every group I think. I’m answering my own question with a YES, as I think it’s a space that’s empowering to women by definition, so the men there will be already filtered. I hope that any women with experiences in this world will chime in as well.
April 27, 2015 at 4:27 AM
Umm, no, I don’t see that as a viable option, Nina. I see that as simply turning the tables and putting women in charge instead of men. Either way, there’s an unhealthy power imbalance. Healthy, balanced relationships are between two people who are equal in each other’s eyes.
April 28, 2015 at 12:03 PM
Well I’m tired and thinking outside the box since the old ways aren’t working. Tired of the men who are, my “physical matches”, being jerks. Tired of giving chances to less attractive seemingly nice guys because they end up being insecure jerks who leave before I leave them.
Like “A” said above, I too get into that “stay in your lane” mentality because it never fails that the average to even unattractive guys I give a chance to end up being just as guilty of the beauty tricks as any. And funny thing, often people look at me and just see this beautiful thing, not knowing that I still see myself sometimes as that too skinny girl with the glasses. It’s what’s made me, coupled with a childhood of illness and a very humble upbringing with closeness to wise elders, the sweet and empathetic person that I am. I’ve taken the opportunity to explain this to men and women, that we never know what another’s pain, experience has been and so don’t judge a book by it’s cover, and well you’d have thought I gave them the greatest secret of the universe. And yet it’s the rare one who could remember that and respond to me on a human level. They might for awhile, but always would come the jabs, and “well you don’t have that problem” and yadda yadda. Meanwhile I like people because of their individual characters, and yes of course good hygiene, fitness, elegance and all that adds to attractiveness, but I’ve never gone for muscles, hair, stereotypical “hot” or “cool”.
So yes I’m digging at alternative ways of thought and being, while I continue to show up, usually smiling, but even that gets me into trouble!
April 28, 2015 at 2:17 PM
I’m sorry you are coming up empty, Nina. I know plenty of nice guys who are married to attractive women so that species definitely exists. I hope you are able to find one of your own soon.
May 16, 2015 at 12:43 AM
Very interesting article.
If I may shed some light on the matter as a man, I would say yes beauty comes with its challenges both for men around the beautiful women and the beautiful women themselves.
Beauty tends to give women confidence, and most women will have that bit of arrogance and pride in their beauty. As a man, there is nothing I hate more than having an arrogant woman, that is a manly quality that just spoils her femininity in my eyes. A caring humble women is way more pleasing to be with than an arrogant beautiful statue.
Beautiful women get compliments everywhere, and have learned to thicken their skin and do not appreciate less flattery genuine complements by good men trying to approach them. They are used to high doses of it and a mild one will have no taste for them. Some might even be a bit hostile or disrespectful.
A wise beautiful woman should just forget about the fact she is beautiful , and start acting from that perspective. She needs to look up to her man, and make him feel like he is her hero, She must never ever think she is too good for him. That is the moment she loses it all.
May 16, 2015 at 4:04 AM
Agadeer, I take issue with a few things you wrote.
First, arrogance is not a manly quality. It is a quality that is unattractive in both men and women. Likewise, humility is an attractive quality in both sexes, not just women.
Second, you making a general assumption about beautiful women having thick skin and not appreciating genuine compliments. That is absolutely not true. It’s a stereotype that many men buy into and perpetuate to rationalize why such women are not interested in them.
Third, a man should “look up to his woman” just as much as a woman should “look up to her man.” A healthy relationship is one between equals in which each admires the other. Admiration is the number one predictor of whether a relationship will thrive and last.
Your comments indicate a belief that men are innately superior to women. An attitude like that will only attract women who feel inferior, which does not bode well for a relationship.
May 21, 2015 at 7:39 PM
Very interesting article and comments. I truly believe it explains a lot .
I live and work in a rural area (ranching) and there are not very many availible women out here. Also, by the nature of what I do, there is hardly any time to go out and meet new ones. The shine of living on a ranch and the ” cowboy” way of life, quickly wears off as they find there are very few vacations and it’s a 7 day a week job. You would have had to meet this “right woman” as a youngster. Pushing 50 doesn’t help either.
Very good reading. Thank you
May 22, 2015 at 5:56 AM
Yes, you’ve got your work cut out for you, Cookie. Then again, when “cowboy types” have placed ads for girlfriends, the response has always been huge. So get creative and make some good things happen!
June 2, 2015 at 8:26 PM
I don’t know where to start, the story of my life? Every girl I’ve ever truly been attracted to wasn’t interested in a relationship with me yet frequently spoke of never being able to find a “good” guy or wanting one. A girl I recently had coffee with displayed this exact behavior. And God it hurts so bad, but what can I do? I’ve tried everything, I’ve been told that she thinks I’m a great guy but she’s “fine” being single, and were back to her looking for super man but putting on the cape would be fruitless. I know I’m young with plenty of time to find that “special” someone but I feel defeated, broken hearted and with nothing to show for it, not even a direct answer.
June 3, 2015 at 4:46 AM
I’m sorry you’re hurting, Blaine. Pretty much everybody has experienced the pain of not being desired by the one you desire. If it’s any comfort, you will likely look back on all this at some point and be grateful that you were still single when the right woman came along.
June 6, 2015 at 11:19 AM
I have come to this conclusion myself. I was one of the popular girls. Maybe not the most beautiful, but with my bleached hair, make up and high heels dancing and having fun. My first boyfriend dumped me and had me as a mistress without me knowing it. He even paid for a hotel room, saying he had construction workers at home. I believed him. He approached me with all the confidence in the world. Next guy, same story. He treated me like crap for 2.5 years. Then I broke up and found a feminist. He lied and I was not over my ex at the time. After I took my ex back and I admitted to having dated another, I was the cheater and a slut despite all his cheating, lies and abusive behaviour. I feel like never wearing make up again. I even wonder if I lost my attractiveness. I dont like men. Only my dad who is someone to respect. We are many 30 year old childless woman. None of us are ugly and bad. All of us having suffered to be with cheaters or selfish men.
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 AM
I am very sorry to hear that you have had such bad experiences, Sara. It’s men like that who give other men a bad name. I can assure you that there are plenty of wonderful, honorable men out there. Some of them are certainly the type to approach attractive women, but many are not. If an attractive woman waits for men to approach her, the odds of finding a great guy are not in her favor.
June 6, 2015 at 11:47 AM
Thanks for replying. 20 days of insults now, for having been so stupid to date someone while on a break. I have humilated him…and the reason why I went out looking for soneine after being an angel for years, is not important. I can’t be forgiven, even though I forgave him many times for a lot worse. I told my friend who has been single for 5 years, that maybe she should give likes to the normal or less good looking men on tinder instead of going out with all these hunters, as you call them. The ones who really want a relationship. I guess it is worth trying to be the one approaching the more quiet and and shy men instead of waiting for Mr. Smooth guy to aporoach us with the experience and charisma. Makes sense. Thanks for the advice.
June 6, 2015 at 11:58 AM
Yes, if you’re looking for a long-term relationship, then finding out if a guy is sincerely interested in that right up front is a good place to start. Just striking up a casual conversation with someone may lead to something. If you feel uncomfortable approaching guys, you should know that many, many guys feel the same way. A lot of women think that men have no problem approaching women because the men who do approach women are the only ones they have contact with. You would be surprised at how many men wouldn’t even consider approaching an attractive woman.
June 6, 2015 at 12:31 PM
:) Easy to forget. Thanks.
July 1, 2015 at 7:56 PM
For the longest time I always believed I was the ideal man; handsome, caring, loving, understanding, trusting, and a believer. It wasn’t until I learned about a woman’s vulnerability that I began to truly understand what separates those who desire enduring love from those who simply desire being loved. Accepting vulnerability as a strength has been the single greatest achievement for my love life. I feel like I can approach any woman or any man and selflessly give my time, consideration, and appreciation in a healthy loving manner. I truly appreciate people, both women and men. Also, I appreciate your insight and I believe it will be very beneficial in my search for Ms. Right :)
But I want to reiterate, being accepting to vulnerability and conquering those feelings is TREMENDOUS for a nice guy’s confidence, and thusly his love life and appreciation for all humans. We are all susceptible to fear, but fear is a friend in disguise.
Again, thank you so much for your insight!
July 2, 2015 at 3:30 PM
“Fear is a friend in disguise” is a very nice observation, Kal. But I’m confused. You mentioned a woman’s vulnerability, but then it sounds like you are talking about your own vulnerability as well. Please elaborate.
July 6, 2015 at 6:50 PM
I’m having a problem with this very issue. I’ve been complimented on how beautiful I am since I was a kid from both men and women. Always being told how pretty I am. I probably have a bit of an ego problem because of it but I’m also educated and hard working. But I can NEVER keep a man. I’ve been single for years and it’s gotten to the point that when I meet guys they’re like “Damn, you’ve been single for how long? But you’re so fine what’s wrong with u?” It’s annoying but after my current failed situation I’m wondering the same thing ? Any advice for me?
July 7, 2015 at 4:47 PM
I’m sorry to hear you are experiencing this common problem, Cocoa. As I wrote in the article, “The more attractive the woman, the less likely she will be approached by the kind of man who is good in relationships.” You need to start interacting with a different type of men if you’re looking for a long-term relationship. It might be helpful to check out some comments left on this post by previous visitors. There are some good ideas by both men and women.
November 2, 2015 at 3:37 AM
Impressive article. It’s true, everyone thinks that a beautiful woman can easily find the right guys, but she has to go through all the over-confident losers who mostly want a one-night stand.
November 2, 2015 at 6:35 AM
Yes, although it’s better to go around the hunters than through them!
January 17, 2016 at 12:47 AM
Dear Phil,
First of all, happy new year, to you and all readers.
What are some reasons someone makes you feel so special and wanted one moment, but then they DONT answer ANY of your messages?
January 22, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Well, the obvious reason would be that they were only interested in getting you into bed from the very beginning. Hunters can be skilled at making a woman feel special and desired, but as soon as they have their fill, they vanish.
There also seems to be a trend nowadays of ending a relationship by simply “vanishing” and cutting off all contact. It’s cruel and inexcusable, but it’s all too common.
Ultimately, being treated like this is like that awful moment of realization when it hits you that a con artist just ripped off all your money. You wonder how you could have been so foolish and trusting when the object of your admiration was not at all trustworthy. It can be painful and difficult to move on, but the sooner you do the hard work of getting over it and moving on, the better off you’ll be.
February 12, 2016 at 1:17 AM
very inspiring and deep thoughts, but i think all women are beautiful in one way or another, and they definitely can tell or even smell a predator. It is just that they love the thrill and they go for the adventure. Only their venusian mind makes them want better and better, or different! Also men are both predators and cherisher, so they switch according to occasion or opportunity; and women know that well. that’s why most women and men prefer to say about relationships: it is complicated
February 12, 2016 at 7:25 AM
Yes, it’s all very complicated. Some men and women like adventure; others value simplicity and stability. Men who are predators (hunters) are the ones that women need to watch out for. Your comment suggests that all men are predators, which is absolutely not the case. Men who have respect for women (starting with their mothers, sisters, friends, etc.) and who see women as full human beings and not just as body parts, would never dream of acting in a predatory way. The chances of me treating a woman like that are about the same as me robbing a liquor store; I couldn’t do it if my life depended on it.
February 13, 2016 at 3:28 AM
thanks Phil for the comment! of course there are men who are pure cherisher, i for one find myself to be one and obviously you are too! but how many are out there? i am hoping there are more than one would suspect !
February 13, 2016 at 10:41 AM
We can only hope!
February 23, 2016 at 12:23 AM
I do notice one thing here in California! All the hot/beautiful women (18-30) age wants the guy who MUST be over 6’0, looks like cristiano ronaldo, must have a house in a beach city and drive nothing less then a lexus. Maybe they do find that guy but it never last because that certain guy is on to the next project or has a stable of girls waiting for their turn with him. I been told i’m not tall enough and i’m 5’10, i been told by many women i tried (once in awhile to go out my league and JUST MEET) that i was flat out ugly and they would laugh with their girlfriends at my expense.. I’m not attractive but i do good. I’m usually the average guy with my average date at a nice restaurant treating her right while i see TONS of beautiful stuck-up women at the dinner table having drinks alone and no ring on their fingers and no men approaching them. I would rather date women like a sally field over a Candice Swanepoel any day. I think for the average 9-5 guys it’s hard to believe that a hot Sofia Vergara type woman would just be into him just because.. This is what i seen with my experience. All the beautiful women i see i don’t even think twice approaching but i would approach the girl at the laundry mat with sweats, glasses and a gold personality..
February 23, 2016 at 7:56 AM
Kevin, while your observations certainly have an element of truth to them, I would be very careful about making any blanket judgments like “hot girls only want THIS in a guy.” If you make such assumptions and believe them unquestionably, then you forever close yourself off to the exceptions to the rule that are absolutely out there.
When belief hardens into certainty and perception is mistaken for fact, it is only natural to conclude that any reasonable person would agree with our assessment. Meanwhile, there are a lot of lonely women and men out there who have needlessly given up hope.
February 24, 2016 at 1:11 AM
I am 31 years old and so disapointed that i’m still at the stage of trying to find my life partner..i feel it is unfair by this age to still be in a place i was (and most people were) in my 20s..i should be already in a long term relationship and talk about having kids..instead i am still wondering where this man is???? I am Greek, I have a bachelor degree in politics, have my own business and like reading books, working out, taking care of my spirituality (going to church and have a relationship with God), I am social, used to be (*until last year) very positive and always smiling, never liked clubbing or meeting men in bars etc.,approachable…i am able to fall in love(have been 3 times) …so i dont get why people tell me i am picky cause when i fall in love they tell me “what did you find in him?” “you’re too good for him” but when everything falls apart and i am again for long periods single and not able to find anyone attractive enough to my eyes in order to feel the time to spend with him worthy, they start telling me “you r too picky” “you have to compromise” “you shouldnt expect Mr perfect cause he doesnt exist” eh??? and im wondering.. Alll these times i fell for these guys were they perfect?NO..cause they were HUMANS…but i was in love with them..so what’s wrong??? And as time passes by it gets harder because most people have already paired up and if all these years that people where more easy to find them being single wasnt able to find “the one” how many chances are there that i wil find him now? I was never intimitated by the fact i was single..actually i thought that this is normal and most people prefer to be single rather with the wrong one..just now i realise how most people are so desperate to be in a relationship (just for the sake of it?..not sure..)..i can handle being alone, i can handle not to wait my mobile to ring from a significant other..i am finbe BUT i also will be more than fine to be with the right one that will ADD VALUE to my life!!
I’ve been told i am pretty but i even started doubting this is true..when i go to the gym or in a room with people i can understand that i get an attention from men but i am now not sure whether it is because they find me pretty or because im not that pretty an more easily to be approached (?)..I thought i knew who i was until last year…I met this man that was exactly my type..when he approached me and didnt back off but was waiting for me to be ready (dating me everyday for 2 months before i give in) i was so relieved that i thought that i finally found the man i wanted, he also wanted me and was SEEING ME for who i was.and wasnt scared to show me and tell me how much he liked me!!..until that point i had experienced having guys i didnt like at all asking me out, and the ones i liked were only assuming that it will be easy for me to cheat on them because i have too many options(?)…so i was (and am) devastated by the fact that i feel as if men are attracted to me and want to get something from me (which comes to sex) but not wanting a relationship because they feel insecure that someone else will steal me from them? It turned out that he was even worse than all guys b4 him….he hid from me the fact that he was in a long term relationship with a woman for 11 years!!!!! (and surprise suprise..her looks was mediocre..nothing special..not ugly but not beautiful…)..so this is what i experience and I AM no SO AGRY AT MEN…men in committed relationships (like him) trying to sleep with me (by lying about their status and intentions in order to get what they want from me)..this last summer i even had a NEWLY married man (with a few months old daughter ) hitting on me and when i said no he got upset and said “what do you want me to do? to divorce my wife?”..what????? NOOOOO…I JUST want you to stick with your choice and LEAVE me ALONE…to find an emotionally available man!!!! I feel used…the last guy chased me only to get to have me (because in his mind this is only he could have cause a relationship would cause him more stress with me than with her?)..it is soooo unfair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mediocre women (which i dont say that they dont have value..they can be and sure are adorable but why do they get the best guys (both in looks and chaacter ) and we r left just for their fun??? I dont bring to the table only looks..i have worked to get to have a total package but sometimes i feel like this is what they think “too good to be true..where is the catch?”..and therefore they dont bother for more…
Am i right???? I dont even know whethe i am beautiful..i have come to a point to not believing in them when they tell me…i wish i was mediocre in everything..i wish i was stupid (cause men prefer stupid than smart)..i wish i hadnt worked so much on myself so that i could more easily find my features on my future mate…
February 24, 2016 at 11:17 PM
I am sorry to hear that you are having these all-too-common problem, Vailiki. ALl I can suggest is to look through the many comments left on this post. A lot of women and men have made suggestions that you may find helpful. I sure hope you find what you’re looking for.
And never apologize for being smart and having worked on yourself. What you’re doing is making yourself a better, healthier match for the guy you do eventually end up with. And then all of this that you’re going through now will be nothing but a dim memory.
February 25, 2016 at 8:07 AM
Very interesting indeed. Thank you for sharing this.
I have only once had a boyfriend I found truly handsome, all others had the kind of personality that makes you forget all other men.
However, I always had the same problem, even with my ex-husband of 20 years relationship – they all asked me why I was with them, as if insinuating that there must have been something else I wanted from them other than love.
This drove my ex-husband crazy to the point that he was adamant I had another man and I eventually had to literally run away in fear for my safety (I will allow you to fill in the very common life-drama here).
This is happens EVERY TIME! Except for the man I actually found handsome, we ended for good reasons.
I have one advice to ask though and I hope you can give me a little of your time to help me out. It is the kind of thing most people stick a label on, but you sound like you lost you label maker:
I am now totally in love with a man who I find to be the most handsome I ever met. I know him for nearly 3 years and the more I know him the more I am enthralled, even with his bad traits, because they make him more real and they show me how not so bad he is.
The chemistry is like no other, although I play really cool all the time, and I do get this vibe from him that he is into me too, both by the way he looks at me and how he prefers to stay close to me or talk to me than anyone else.
What is the problem then? Well my friend, there has to be a problem in it?
The problem is that he is my boss. Yup. And this is where everyone tells me to walk it off. In fact, I am actively looking for a new job, as I find this whole thing quite energy drenching.
Well, maybe there is no advice anyone can give me really. Forgetting him is useless because we sit side by side from Monday to Friday.
I am hoping that moving jobs will allow me to move on so I can find a real relationship, or that perhaps this will give him the opportunity to make his move.
Pray for me :-)
February 25, 2016 at 11:23 PM
Sheila, perhaps you could try this: Go up to your boss and say, “I have two things to give you: my resignation letter and my phone number.” And see where things go from there.
The big thing that many women don’t understand is that if you wait for a guy to make a move, you’ll probably be waiting forever. If you want something to happen, be bold. Make it happen. You don’t have to be aggressive. Just come up with a creative way to let him know you’re interested.
March 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM
This article doesn’t cover the situation when the beautiful , romantic and intelligent woman pursues the nice guys and she is constantly rejected. You focused on shy nice guys who don’t dare to try. Actually they don’t dare to go out with such women even when they are invited. What to do then? Continue to pursue them for ever? This will also turn them off. So,if they don’t dare to try, nor to answer to invitation, what can the poor beautiful romantic woman do?
March 18, 2016 at 10:07 AM
Hi, Claudia. You’re right that a certain percentage of shy nice guys will feel too inadequate to go out with beautiful women. It’s a mistake, however, to assume that all nice guys will react like that, just as it’s a mistake for men to assume that all beautiful women will react in a certain way. I wish you luck!
April 8, 2016 at 9:03 AM
I too, have this problem. Not saying I’m outrageously gorgeous, but I’m attractive enough that it intimidates the good guys. Usually when I’m out at a bar it’s the arrogant hunters that approach me, when who I really want to approach me is their quiet wing man sitting in the background. Men sometimes break their necks looking at me, but no one approaches me.
April 8, 2016 at 11:57 AM
Hi, Cassandra. Is there any way for you to initiate casual conversation with a wing man? As the adage says, “If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed.”
June 2, 2016 at 7:40 PM
If a woman wants to up her chances of finding a good dude, simply tell the guys you go out with, that you don’t have sex before marriage. The Aholes won’t be back for a second date. Then take it slowly, any guy that loses patience will leave, again not worth it.
Finally the guys that stay with it are the potential keepers. Just see who enjoys you without sex.
June 2, 2016 at 8:22 PM
Yes, that’s true, Jeff. And when a woman confirms that she’s got a good guy, she is free to change the rules.
June 3, 2016 at 1:58 AM
Warren Farrell wrote that the women’s revolution has done very little to dent women’s lack of desire to approach men. For the most part, the only ‘acceptable’ way for the majority of women see to meet men is at work, at college or through friends. Meeting in public is not usually something women are open to nowdays.
Women often complain: “men do not approach us”. This means you do not approach men. If you said that you approach men but they reject you then I would have sympathy. The reality is that all the approaching that happens is from the men’s side, and the result is almost universally that things go nowhere as a result. I know this from experience and from stories other guys bring up. When approaching females a guy can expect a 99-100% failure rate. This reality feeds back into the system and causes most men to not approach at all. The men you notice staring, but not approaching, is their way of expressing their desire to approach but ultimately not going through with it because of the very high chance of failure and possible humiliation that will result.
If you truly do want men to approach you then I suspect you are part of the very small minority of females who actually want to meet men in public, OR you are lying by omission and only want the very highest calibre of men to approach you, which still translates into being unapproachable for the vast majority of men.
I suggest you do some approaching yourself. And if you refuse to do that, and I suspect you will because women are chicken about this sort of thing, then you must go out of your way to make yourself as approachable as possible. You can do this by standing next to guys you want to meet and giving them some smiles and eye contact. That is plenty of bait and for me personally it would be all the signals I need to strike up a conversation with you, assuming I was interested. I would never, ever approach a woman that didn’t give me obvious signals of interest, and I suspect many other guys are the same.
Look at it this way, giving signals of interest is much easier than approaching, so to not even be willing to do THAT part of the mating dance is wholly unacceptable.
June 11, 2016 at 10:34 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, John. Yes, I suspect that women give little thought to the trauma (and I don’t think that’s too strong a word) that men so often experience in their attempts to approach women. Many women probably think that men are supposed to do the approaching because that’s just what men do.
And yes, I have talked to women who admitted that they do what they can to make themselves desirable to men but get annoyed when men approach them who they’re not interested in. They had failed to see the irrationality of that attitude until I pointed it out to them.
Ultimately, the problem is, as I stated in the post, that the men who separate themselves from the pack by being bold enough to approach women are typically NOT the type of men who are looking for a relationship. The sooner that women understand this, the sooner they can protect themselves and consider other options.
June 11, 2016 at 4:05 PM
Women often complain that when they DO approach a man, they get turned down.
If a woman thinks a man is going to ask her, she will usually wait as long as it takes – 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or more.
The only time they usually ask is when they think he ISN’T going to.
Which means they usually only take initiatives with men who are marginally interested. Which translates to a ‘no’ answer.
June 11, 2016 at 4:07 PM
It’s not necessarily the case that such men are only marginally interested. It could be, but it also may be just the opposite.
June 12, 2016 at 12:03 AM
@Phil “Many women probably think that men are supposed to do the approaching because that’s just what men do”
That is my point. The recent decades have seen women become far more independent and confident when it comes to careers etc, but most still not having the confidence to approach men.
When women’s consciousness was raised, they saw housework as being their dirty work. Perhaps when men’s consciousness is raised they will see taking initiatives and paying for dates as a man’s dirty work.
If a woman says ‘no’ and means no then why aren’t men listening?
I would suggest if a man initiates intimacy on a date, a woman is well within her rights to say no. However, it would prevent many problems if a woman told a man…”I’m not ready now, but I will tell you when I am. You don’t need to ask me”.
On another point, one female here mentioned she was a dentist, attractive, and had a pleasant personality and couldn’t understand why men were not coming forward.
What happens is that most men will screen themselves out rather than be screened out, based on what they see around them.
Only 5% of women will marry ‘below’ them and the man will need to be at least at their professional level or above. A woman won’t usually marry their male secretary. This means a woman’s binoculars are reversed and most of the good men are ‘invisible’. These might be blue collar workers, teachers etc. These are known as america’s invisible men.
June 12, 2016 at 1:10 AM
Men don’t listen when a woman says no because they believe that a coy “no” means “not yet, but keep asking.” And indeed, many women have told me that this can be true. The trouble is, many men interpret a forceful “no,” which means, “no, never, and stop bothering me,” as a “not yet, but keep asking.” Why? Because these men aren’t really listening to the woman, they’re only listening to their inner drive. It’s a recipe for disaster.
June 12, 2016 at 4:09 AM
@Phil “It’s not necessarily the case that such men are only marginally interested. It could be, but it also may be just the opposite”..
That may be true too, but in many cases a woman will only do the approach if she thinks a man isn’t going to.
I have a theory there are only 3 reasons a man doesn’t approach a woman:
1. He’s not attracted to her physically. There is much discussion about men’s looks,but these are far less important to a woman than a woman’s looks are to a man. True, a woman might say she wants a handsome man, but good looking women want more than good looking men. For a man, if he really isn’t sure, the looks will almost always be the deciding factor.
2. He perceives her as being unapproachable. For example, in a bar if a woman won’t even look at a man, he will just assume she’s not interested. Men are more down and direct in these situations.
3. He lacks confidence, i.e., rejection, believing his financial/social status won’t match her expectations. This can kick in early (where he will screen himself out rather than be screened out) or if she does actually approach he will back off. He won’t ever tell a woman why he has done this, so she will just assume he can’t handle a woman taking the initiative.
June 12, 2016 at 4:10 AM
In the latter case, she may also assume that he isn’t attracted to her, which is completely the opposite of what he’s thinking.
June 12, 2016 at 4:15 AM
I recently saw this on some dating advice – “Women want to be approached but behave as though they don’t.”
Approaching the wrong woman, or approaching at the wrong time can get a man in serious trouble. No wonder many men have given up. I know that if a woman won’t even look at me then it’s a no as far as I’m concerned.
June 12, 2016 at 7:49 PM
One of the biggest barriers to communication between men and women is that women think that men understand their signals and know exactly whet they’re trying to tell them. The reality is that many (if not most) men have no clue that women are even sending signals, much less how to interpret them.
June 12, 2016 at 10:34 PM
@Phil “The reality is that many (if not most) men have no clue that women are even sending signals, much less how to interpret them”.
You hit the nail on the head.
Warren Farrell wrote that berween first meeting and intimacy a man has to overcome 153 levels of rejection. On top of all that, each woman is different in these so called signals. Multiply those by 153 and you have full blown obsession.
And women often think they are taking the initiative, when in fact these are receptive (not proactive) moves, often which men don’t recognize is happening.
But even if they do, many times they will screen themselves out rather than be screened out later purely because of nervousness or fluffing their lines.
June 13, 2016 at 5:54 AM
Yep. Women are speaking a language that men don’t understand, and women don’t understand that men don’t understand it. Dave Barry wrote a hilarious piece about the difference between men and women:
June 13, 2016 at 9:42 AM
In asking for dates and men refusing to take no for an answer, movies and books perpretrate the idea that if a man is persistent enough he can get what he wants. After all, if he’s prepared to take those risks, he must have proven himself that he is genuinely interested in her. In my mind this is rape training and does no service for women.
June 13, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Agreed. I’ve always been mystified at men who keep asking out women after being told no numerous times. I know that in many such cases, the women ends up saying yes and they end up happily together. At the same time, being relentlessly persistent isn’t that different from stalking. The subtleties elude me.
June 14, 2016 at 4:16 AM
@Phil “Women are speaking a language that men don’t understand, and women don’t understand that men don’t understand it”.
In general that is true and prevents many people getting together, who otherwise should do. I have noticed a phenomenon among quite a few male friends in their 20s to 30s, who have been what I call “helped and led.” They all got married but it was the woman who appeared to do all the running and the asking. One or two of these would never have even dated a woman without this. I think in many cases women need to realize they need to be introspective and look at what they can do to start taking some responsibility and initiative. Only when a woman shares male risks can she really begin to understand men.
In a large percentage of marriages, women are happier when they have taken some initiative in choosing rather than just waiting to be chosen. Warren Farrell, who studied this for decades found that women who were married purely on the basis of being chosen were likely to have married only their 3rd or 4th choice of man had they felt they could choose.
June 14, 2016 at 10:12 AM
Agreed. By the way, a good friend of mine told me that she had never been with a man she would have chosen because she always waited until a man chose her.
June 16, 2016 at 10:39 PM
@Phil “It’s not necessarily the case that such men are only marginally interested. It could be, but it also may be just the opposite.”
It is true that men who turn women down can do this for a number of reasons. But if this happens, rejected women will often say a man can’t handle it when a woman does the approaching.
I particularly remember two cases where the opposite result happened. The women expressed interest and both men had no idea, One had grown up with one of them, and the other had met the single parent mother only once at a friend’s house.
Both couples have now been married for many years and would not have been together if the woman had waited to be chosen by someone. And the women might well have been single for far longer had they not said anything.
In his book why “Men Are the Way They Are,” Warren Farrell argues this is the reason women are likely to be far more ambivalent about who they are married to, for the very reason they usually tend to wait to be chosen rather than choose when they are interested in someone.
I can remember quite a number of times in my early teens when I was approached by very very attractive girls around my own age. One phoned me up, one told others, one got her friend to ask me to dance with her, and another got her friend to ask me. This was at a time when things were not sexual like they are today, I admit I did not know how to handle it so none of them led to anything. I do kick myself now,
June 17, 2016 at 5:18 AM
It certainly makes sense that someone would tend to be happier with their partner if they had chosen the partner themselves.
As for kicking yourself, I can relate, and I’m sure plenty of other men can too. When something happens that you don’t expect, your ability to react can get a bit scrambled.
June 17, 2016 at 5:36 AM
I’ve made quite a few comments on this blog, but there is an important factor which will help men particularly. I say this because of how men and women are conditioned by the media and society in general.
The media portrays men as wallets and success objects and women as sex objects. This is what is so damaging about pornography. It discounts that one important factor I’m referring to. And women’s pornography (romance novels) also objectifies men as success objects.
I don’t claim to be an expert on approaching women, but it will help men greatly (as it does me) to never forget that a woman, no matter what she looks like is a human being with feelings, not an object. And it is important to treat her as such.
June 17, 2016 at 5:45 AM
Yes, that’s why the first quote I use on the post is this:
The desire of a man for a woman is not directed at her because she is a human being, but because she is a woman. That she is a human being is of no concern to him.
Immanuel Kant
The sooner a man recognizes and treats women as beautiful human beings instead of just bodies, the sooner he becomes a real man and the world becomes a better place.
July 18, 2016 at 1:12 PM
thanks for this post, I found it very helpful. I have been wondering why at age 34 I have been asked out by so many guys over the years and told I am beautiful by both men and women yet I am still single. This has helped me realise. A lot of the men who do approach me are secretly still in relationships or they are sinister and I have been manipulated or played by them. I have often wondered why only bad guys ask me out -now I understand that the nice guys are too shy – or yes, I do end up friend-zoning the nice ones because they are so genuine that I can’t help but see them as a friend. If only they realised that I was secretly just as shy as them. I am also an intelligent financially successful woman and it never occurred to me that nice guys would find that even more intimidating. Being approached by only “hunter” types has left me emotionally-damaged as those types will mess with your head or use put-downs to make you feel like you aren’t good enough for other guys anyway. This turns into a bit of a vicious circle as now I find it hard to read men. I have been in situations where multiple guys vied for my attention at once and been the recipient of many cruel glares from women. Often guys will label you “high-maintenance” or say you are stuck-up or girls will call you nasty names (some guys will too) and all of it is based on assumptions as none of them actually know me. It is actually very lonely being a beautiful and intelligent woman and very confusing.
July 22, 2016 at 5:03 AM
I’m sorry that your experiences mirror the examples in this post so closely, Sarah. But at least now you have some insight into why it’s happening. Hopefully, you can overcome your shyness and start a casual conversation with guys you’re interested in. It may take some courage, but just saying, “Hello, I’m Sarah. How are you?” can make all the difference.
I have one big question for you. You wrote, “I do end up friend-zoning the nice ones because they are so genuine that I can’t help but see them as a friend.” What in the world does that mean? If a guy is genuinely nice, you can only see him as a friend??? I suggest you reexamine that reaction. It very well could be a primary cause of your misery.
July 22, 2016 at 5:15 AM
a few years ago on tv there was an interesting test about attractive women and approachablility. A very attractive and friendly model was sat on a promenade with lots of people going past over a period of about 4 hours. Many men were filmed smiling at her, saying hello and some even engaging in polite conversation as they passed. The woman’s job was just to sit there and appear friendly, nothing else.
These men were all average to very good looking, but most seemed to be ok and perfectly normal Yet only one actually asked her for a date – a man about 4 years older.
The conclusion they came to was that the man who asked her did so because he felt he had nothing to lose, whatever she said. The others did not want to risk the rejection.
So it appears it often takes a ‘nothing to lose’ position before a man will speak up.
(I’m not including rich and/or famous men as they will have women coming to them from all angles and will be in a position to choose. However I’ve read of many cases where even these men will be hesitant to approach a woman and have had to get a friend to do it).
July 22, 2016 at 5:19 AM
Yes, that’s very typical, John. The trouble is, most guys who adopt a “I’ve got nothing to lose” attitude are hunters who figure that even if they ask 20 women out, they’re bound to get a yes sooner or later. Such men are not interested in women as human beings, only as conquests.
July 22, 2016 at 5:37 AM
That is true, but what this did was also highlight the number of men who were probably just nice shy guys who just said hello or even passed by while screening themselves out rather than be screened out. In this case it would help if a woman could recognize when this is happening and make it easier for a man. I’ve seen many friends end up getting married when this happens. Of course, if a man is still running scared then he will need to address these issues and realise the problems are mainly with him.
As for men being intimidated by successful women, many men I have spoken to say they wouldn’t mind – as long as the woman doesn’t. Warren Farrell argues that it is often the woman who has issues around this rather than just men who look around and see that 95% of women still marry ‘up’ or at least at the level they are at. Many men simply aren’t convinced, in spite of what women say, that it is just men who have the problem with this. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
A woman will not usually marry her male secretary. They might live with someone but marrying them is another matter. If you look at many celebrity men who marry, it is often around the time they have some success breakthrough or something major happens in their career.
However, most men don’t usually care too much about women’s professional status, or it is not the top priority. In one experiment Warren Farrell conducted only 13% of college age men knew or even cared about the career potential of a woman they were interested in. This was far far higher in women who had an interest in a man.
July 22, 2016 at 5:41 AM
Regarding your last paragraph, college-age men aren’t even thinking about a woman’s career potential. When it comes to women, they’re focused on one thing only.
July 22, 2016 at 5:46 AM
That might be true of many men, but many people meet at college and end up married. You can be damned sure a woman will be looking at a man’s potential career-wise, even if most men aren’t. Men will be looking at sex appeal while women will be looking at success appeal. Indeed in many colleges it is the future lawyers/doctors etc who get the women flocking round them. And although there are many positions on the field, the quarterback is the most popular among women. This is no coincidence as the quarterback is the leader’s position who also makes many of the team’s decisions.
July 24, 2016 at 9:47 AM
Hi all,
Been a while since I was here and I’ve been doing a lot of work on/with myself to become happier as a person, which would eventually also lead to better partners.
Well, it’s been hard work and I’m very grateful for it as I do feel happier with myself :) But things seem to be getting worse with partners/men. For one, I was sexually assaulted at work because, according to the pig who did it, he finds me attractive and we got along so well.
Through online dating I met an average guy: average job, average car, average IQ, average income, average apt in average suburb. Well, lo and behold, we eventually started sleeping together and next thing I know he updated his online dating profile before disappearing on me. Just poof.
So now I’m not only confused but also hurt.
July 24, 2016 at 1:28 PM
I’m so sorry you’ve had these experiences, Jenna. And i certainly hope your coworker is paying the price for assaulting you. Behavior like that cannot be tolerated in any way.
I know how tempting it is to assume that all men will treat you like the last man did, but that simply isn’t the case. Yes, you may run into more of these hunter types because they’re hard to avoid, but don’t give up hope. jut because you encounter one hunter or ten or a hundred doesn’t mean there aren’t any good men out there.
July 25, 2016 at 1:17 AM
I’m trying to keep the faith, Phil, always :) The now ex coworker’s life continues as normal but mine has been a mess – seems to be the norm in these cases because the law is on men’s side.
What’s confusing about the last guy was that he didn’t seem like the hunter type. I mean, he was nothing like the hunters I’d met/been with before. I must have missed some signs, I’m sure, but now I feel like I just don’t have access to nice guys somehow and I’d like to know how to figure that one out.
July 25, 2016 at 5:17 AM
I don’t know that it can be figured out, Jenna. The best advice I could give anyone is to listen to your intuitive guidance and watch out for red flags.
July 25, 2016 at 5:48 AM
Whoever this man was, he must have slipped through the net somehow, although this is no reflection on you. But he probably couldn’t believe his luck. The vast majority of men (unless they are rich and/or famous) see women as reluctant tigers who have to be coaxed in one way or another. The so called ‘hunters’ know that women rarely take proactive initiatives and so they will see it as a numbers game.
It is true women have loosened up sexually in recent decades, but they have also tightened up on who they do it with. In this case he must have been persistent enough to grab a rare opportunity when it came.
I’m curious as to why you mentioned his ‘average’ car, apt, job, income. I guess this is the main difference between men and women. Women will judge a man by all those things, yet a man will initially usually judge a woman on looks only.
It appears because everything he owned and where he lived was ‘average’ I get the impression you felt you were lowering your standards. And that because of that you deserved more from him in the way of commitment.
Just as a man should be wary of a woman who is looking for a free lunch, women should be wary of men who are just looking for intimacy too quickly.
If a man disappears suddenly without trace, a woman can feel ‘used’. Just as a man can feel ‘used’ if a woman disappears once his money is gone.
Once a woman has had sex with a man it triggers a change in the relationship. And many men can be frightened off, particularly if a woman appears to be pressing for commitment.
To a man, promises of love can feel like promises of payment, particularly when commitment is associated with diamonds and mortgages (although this doesn’t appear to be your problem).
Men (as well as women) are not all rich and have often suffered the effects of the recession and other circumstances.
I would say, allow more time to get to know the man as a person, rather than making judgements based on what they have or where they live. What happened to you could just as easily have happened if the man was rich, lived in a mansion and owned a pink porsche.
I remember what John Gray (Men are from Mars) wrote that when a man disappears suddenly there are three things going on…
1. He has decided he is no longer interested, even though he is a coward for not saying so.
2. He hasn’t told you because he doesn’t want to burn his bridges.
3. He sees it as ending it gracefully.
There is someone there for you. In fact in every American city there are more single unattached men than there are women in some figures I looked at. However this is not surprising to me.
It is important for both men and women to get to know the inner person before diving in deep.
July 25, 2016 at 5:50 AM
Well said, John. Thank you for adding your thoughts.
July 25, 2016 at 12:22 PM
Thanks, Phil and John for replying.
@John: the only reason I mentioned all the average things was that in many comments we talk about how the types of men who go after pretty women normally aren’t average guys. In my experience, for example, I’m used to being approached by successful men (for some reason most men who approach me work in finance). So this time I just thought, “Hey, this guy is completely different!”
I don’t and would never go out with a man because of what he has – funny enough, every single woman I’ve ever known who’s after that has never had a problem finding boyfriends. But with this guy, he’s the one who seemed to feel the need to justify his background. For example, we were talking about what we do for a living and I told him about my rather intellectual work; he manages a local car business. One isn’t better or worse than the other, they’re just different and I didn’t give a rat’s ass but he went on to justify his job. We talked about travel and he’s only been out of the country once whereas I’ve been to more than 20 countries, and we talked about other things that seemed to make him a little self-conscious, whereas they made no difference to me.
I’m telling myself he was just not the right guy for me, but him cutting me off like that is really harsh anyway. I really wasn’t pressing for anything, and in fact, he’s the one who’s always been in long term relationships, whereas I’ve had very few. It was the first time that I just took things one day at a time.
You say: “It is important for both men and women to get to know the inner person before diving in deep.” I think you’re right and maybe I rushed it with the sex – an idea I truly hate because it feels like playing games; I’ve always thought that the right man wouldn’t be judgmental, but then again, how many times do I want to get into this type of situation :/ I’ll keep your words in my planner as a reminder :)
As for him disappearing, I’m going with Gray’s reason 1, given his updated online profile. Thanks for including that list, btw!
Well, hopefully our posts help other women and men. Keeping positive always!
July 25, 2016 at 4:03 PM
John Gray is right. Anyone who simply cuts off contact and vanishes is a coward. It’s called an Irish Goodbye or ghosting, although those terms are usually used with reference to simply leaving a social event unannounced. But sadly, it’s becoming more popular for leaving relationships abruptly as well: http://tinyurl.com/ncpkdor
The worst part about ghosting is that it’s far more difficult for the person left behind to find closure. I was far more fortunate. Here’s my experience: https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/heal/
July 25, 2016 at 6:31 PM
@Jenna – “In my experience, for example, I’m used to being approached by successful men (for some reason most men who approach me work in finance)…I didn’t give a rat’s ass but he went on to justify his job.”
Let me quote Warren Farrell…Male makeup is men’s titles, status and paying for dates. Makeup is what both sexes use to bridge the gap between the power they have and the power they’d like to have. Both male and female makeup are compensations for feelings of powerlessness.
“the types of men who go after pretty women normally aren’t average guys. In my experience, for example, I’m used to being approached by successful men (for some reason most men who approach me work in finance).”
Of course they do. Why did they want a black Porsche? Because they never saw an ugly woman get out of one. Women don’t usually associate blue collar work with ‘success’ unless a man is extremely rich from running a business in it. The man you met felt he had a choice of lowering his standards in looks – or being vulnerable, which he did by feeling he had to justify what he did for a living. This is quite rare. Particularly as other women would normally be telling her she could do better.
Adverts are a good indicator of what women say and the message men hear.
This reminds me of the ‘De Beers Transfer’ in “Why Men Are the Way They Are,” a book I highly recommend by Warren Farrell. De Beers diamonds changed their advert in Time magazine (read by the general public) to a mechanic. The headline read… “And to think I worked all that overtime just to buy you a diamond ring”. However, most very attractive women would not consider a mechanic, even with the diamond ring.
Women in ads: if she’s beautiful she’s portrayed as having the wealthy surroundings without earning them herself. Men in ads: He’s portrayed doing the type of activity it takes to earn possession of his environment.
July 26, 2016 at 6:41 AM
Thanks for the links, Phil! I’ll spend more time perusing your site – and sorry about your divorce :/
Your own post (https://bolstablog.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/heal/) is VERY helpful! Ya know, after some research I did realize I have in fact been ghosted, though it is true I’m fortunate not to have known it till now, I guess. Makes me think of the line “the opposite of love’s indifference” and indifference hurts more than hate.
It’ll all be OK, though :)
July 26, 2016 at 7:45 AM
You have a great attitude, Jenna. Thank you!
September 17, 2016 at 6:27 AM
It’s so interesting to stumble across this article. This is so true it’s not even funny. All of the men I attract are definitely hunters and narcissists. If you research Narcissistic Personalitly Disorder many of these type of guys fall into this category. They are extremely charming and it’s a world-wind romance in the beginning and then once you see through the haze you see all the ugliness. I have also found that the nice guys will repeatedly tell you how beautiful you are and how they cannot believe you are out with them which is a complete turn off to hear that nonstop as well.
September 17, 2016 at 10:43 AM
Alas, it is all too true, K. However, I can assure you that there are men out there who are confident, considerate, self-aware, and who have honorable intentions. I know such men. I hope you can find what you’re looking for.
October 22, 2016 at 11:45 AM
I’m a beautiful woman and you have finally solved a years’ long dilemma for me. However, this article’s accurate description of men has turned me off to them. Males are useless and dysfunctional and will never be worth anything to us. No gender is worth this. Thus because I’m not a lesbian and cannot become one, I am remaining celibate. Taking the female red pill. Men are worthless. Legs and shutters closed.
October 22, 2016 at 11:49 AM
Veronica, you’re likely throwing out the baby (nice guys) with the bathwater (hunters). There are plenty of great guys out there. Finding them just takes a different approach than what women might be used to.
December 12, 2016 at 5:10 AM
I wish that women would approach us men for a change.
December 12, 2016 at 12:13 PM
That would certainly be a welcome development, Tim. It certainly would given women insight into the challenges faced by men.
December 13, 2016 at 6:51 PM
Dear Sam who posted January 30, 2011 at 6:10pm: I have the SAME problem and I am very disappointed that Phil was at a loss on advice for you. There are A LOT of attractive women over 40 who take care of themselves and are gorgeous, but yes, the 20’somethings want us and they only want us for one thing. Where and how do we meet “relationship” minded men who don’t mind and would appreciate beautiful women over 40. I REFUSE to refer to us as “older women.” It makes us sound OLD and we’re not. We’ve got A LOT over the 20 and 30 somethings.
December 13, 2016 at 6:57 PM
I wish I could offer better advice to you and all the frustrated beautiful women out there, Sherry/Betty, but I don’t think there are any one-size-fits-all magical answers. The best advice I’ve seen on this post is simply to be down to earth and assertive enough to start a conversation with guys instead of waiting for them to come to you. So many women wait for men to approach them, and they end up waiting a long, long time.
January 11, 2017 at 5:39 AM
Thank you, this is very true. 100% agree with what you say. I have experienced this and seen this with others too so many times.
This is one main reason why many beautiful but valuable woman are still alone, generally over thirty.
As a woman, I just think that time is wise and eventually the right person will come. Meanwhile, for beautiful women who are still alone, I just think:
1. Take advantage of being single. Focus on yourself and your goals. Successful and happy people are far more interesting.
2. Please don’t sit around feeling miserable because you are alone. Do what makes you happy and do it the best you can. When if not now?
3. Take the opportunity to meet more people, make friends and do more activities. Real friends are the people who will be around you when you get older.
4. Aim for success and fulfillment with your own self.
5. If you want a baby, remember we women don’t need a man for that, we can have a baby by ourselves. Artificial insemination, a crazy night on the beach? Whatever you choose, remember a woman can have a baby by herself. Aim to have a stable career that helps you raise your child. Forget about being with a man only for financial help.
6. Life is much more than marrying and having kids. Of course, if you have the luck to find the man of your life, there is nothing more beautiful than sharing your life and making a family with him; but if this is not the case, please don’t settle for someone who doesn’t make you feel valued or respected just based on the fact that you’re alone.
7. Forget about judgements from society. It’s your life and you decide who to be with and who to share it with. You only have one life so don’t let others decide what makes you happy. If you decide to be single for now or not to have kids, it’s your decision, not anyone else’s. What people say or think is just that, their little thoughts in their small limited world of judgements.
8. Travel, invest in yourself, do everything you can do that you wouldn’t be able to do if you were with the wrong person.
9. Time is limited. Please don’t waste it living the life of others or with the wrong people.
10. Develop your inner self and your mind, more than the outside features. This way, the right people may start coming around. Beauty doesn’t last, and it’s so stressful to only be admired for your beauty.
10. The last and most important one: Please see yourself as more than just beautiful. How you see yourself is what you project. Attitude is the key. If you put yourself only in the “beautiful” category, you’ll be limiting yourself a lot, and exposing yourself to keep meeting the wrong guys. Time passes and beauty doesn’t last. If you write down everything about yourself that you feel proud of, other than beauty, you’ll start placing yourself on a different level. Don’t waste your limited time seeing yourself as valuable based only on the external side of things. Remember, how you see yourself is what you project to others.
January 12, 2017 at 11:59 AM
Thank you for your wise and thoughtful insights, Suz. So many women ask what the answer is and your reply responds to that question better than anything I’ve seen so far. I will insert your comments into the original post so more people will see them.
February 13, 2017 at 9:59 AM
Usually I would refute the generalizations and stereotypes you have expressed as being ungrounded in any real, empirical proof. I would point out the cliché that stereotypes have an element of truth to them is only correct in situations where the stereotype is true, and is not a catch all and is by no means true in all situations. Having an element of truth means that in every situation there will be a common truth, but this is not the case. The idea that rules of thumb are by any stretch the result of rational thought is irrational and based on feelings rather than proof.
Wait…..did I just…. moving on.
What I believe, based on my extensive reading into the subject of attraction and the psychology and the biology behind it, is that people are trained to think along certain lines. Biology has a place, but it is mostly overruled by training. The media, your parents, your friends, your teachers, the movies you watch, the books you read all serve to train your unconscious associations, which in turn, influence your decisions and thinking.
I have read the counterpoint to nice guys, as written by women. What they express is the notion that nice guys are not really nice at all. They have the opinion that because they are nice, women should find them attractive and see their inner beauty. They become frustrated when such things do not yield the expected results. One should not think of themselves as a nice person, they should think of themselves as people of integrity, much like the view expressed by Henry Thoreau when talking about civil disobedience to immoral government laws, such as the legalisation of slavery. Don’t be nice, be honest. Follow your internal estimation of integrity, rather than what society tells you how you should be to be a nice person.
In relation to beautiful women passing up nice guys because of the hunters, I refute that. They pass up nice guys because they know that nice guys are just as disingenuous as the hunters.
Be honest, not nice.
If you see that old lady trying to cross the road and you think “If I help her, I am a nice person”, don’t help her. If you think “This lady is someones mum/sister/daughter and if my mum/daughter/sister were in a similar situation, I hope someone would help her too,” then do it. If you’re a prick, be a prick, don’t pretend to be something you’re not. But for every person that thinks you’re a prick, someone will think you’re funny; people’s perceptions are not universal.
However there is another aspect to beauty in regards to women that I rarely see discussed. The notion that women are taught to be beautiful in order to secure the perfect husband. This type of thinking is counterproductive and just wasteful and serves only to keep people in a prison of fallacy. Unfortunately women and men are exposed to this idea repeatedly, every day, enough times to slowly become part of our unconscious mind.
Disregard it.
When I see a beautiful woman I am suspicious. I look at how she has achieved beauty: is it through the genetic lottery, or is it through clothing, cosmetics and a copy of Vogue?
All too often, women focus too much on becoming the media and movie idea of what is beautiful, to the loss of who they are as a person and their own unique brand of beauty. They have become a cookie cutter — the only distinction between her and another beautiful women is nothing; they both look the same.
I think give her a round of applause, she has made it to the general ambition of being pretty as taught to her by society. So what. Who are you, your face or your mind?
Then comes group play, when you’re in a group, everyone takes on roles. Usually the most attractive people feel an obligation to date their looks counterpart. When you watch TV shows, what you find is that the prettiest girl always ends up with the prettiest guy, the so-called alpha male, the guy who appears to be the most successful and attractive. So we feel obliged to follow the same rule in life, without independent thought. We are vulnerable and easily influenced, but it is difficult to admit that. That is the starting point.
I could go on all day but I have to go and try to achieve something. What have I achieved here? Hopefully to challenge some preconceived notions that are seen as the done thing; but when you actually think about them, they make no sense whatsoever. Hopefully, that someone reading this will get the message behind the words and start to think for themselves, question the truth of stereotypes and take a more skeptical approach to even themselves, and begin questioning their own motives as to why they believe the things they believe.
In conclusion, what I am really trying to say is that a lot of the time the problems of beautiful women and nice men are self-created — not through your own volition, but through thousands of hours of being told what is right and what you should think, rather than being free to think for yourself. Forget what society tells you about how you should act and think. Ladies, don’t be afraid to question that possible hunter and ask him what he thinks he’s going to get out of the conversation he just struck up. You may think you know, but you don’t. That’s the reality. Stop making heuristic mistakes by making assumptions; actually ask questions. Trust me, when you start delving into their motivations for talking to you, it will become apparent what they are after in the next minute or so. Watch how they handle the questions.
Nice guys, question your own motives as to why you are nice, is it because you are expecting a reward at the end, or just because your internal moral compass tells you it is the right thing to do, regardless of reward? If you can think “You know what, I’m going to be nice because I want to regardless of what others think. If I get no reward for being nice I don’t care because I’m not in this to get a reward,” then…..I don’t even need to end that with anything, I think it speaks for itself.
March 4, 2017 at 2:22 PM
Thanks for your thoughts. I need to point out one comment you made that isn’t congruent with what I wrote. You wrote:
“I have read the counterpoint to nice guys, as written by women. What they express is the notion that nice guys are not really nice at all. They have the opinion that because they are nice, women should find them attractive and see their inner beauty.”
I did not imply in any way that nice guys think that women should find them attractive and see them for who they are and not what they look like. The vast majority of nice guys do not feel this way. They just are resigned that beautiful women are out of their league.
March 17, 2017 at 11:44 AM
May I add my experience,
I know I may be late for discussion. But this site has really resonated with me. Admitting or self-proclaiming as “beautiful” may sound a little conceited, due to society’s double standards and I don’t know if I am. But from 18 onwards (am 20 now), I started being told I am really pretty from everyone: women serving at coffee shops, doctors, kids, men. Before I reached 18, I used to be na ugly duckling. I think of myself as smart but that hardly got me any advantage. In high school life was hard, and I din’t have any friends. Guy seldom approached me for whatever reason, and if they did, it was for academical purposes.
However, I evolved from there. Started gaining more confidence, did volunteering with children and took care of my looks. Somehow, at 18 was when I really started improving, looks-wise. My curves set in in, finally. I grew my hair longer and I got contact lenses, stopped wearing glasses and my acne problema cleared up. I started getting catcalled. What a baffling experience that was! Suddenly everyone was telling me I was really pretty. I was taken aback by this and almost never believed it. And it’s still hard to believe it. Why? My romantic life is a failure.
I got tired of being asked out by jerks. In 2016, I started working in a cal centre to save Money so I could get in college that year. Before I did volunteering in a children orphanage. Guess what? The guys working there had girlfriends but were hitting on me and wanted to go out. I always refused. Same happened in the cal centre, a guy who was really good-looking and also quite cocky left and started sending me messages demanding I go to his house. That he knew I was a virgin and he would tgive me a good time (other women at the cal centre told him I was a virgin…so yeah, don’t know what was their motivation but they probably thought he would stop pursuing me if they told him that). He also had a girlfriend.
I started trying to approach nice guys but honestly they all come off so insecure. They never know what to say, and or how to handle a conversation. Hello! I’m here. I am a human being. I don’t need to be put on a pedestal. They stumble through words… One guy I went on dates with four times made a huge love letter and sent it to me at 3 AM when he thought I was mad at him for not going, even though I wasn’t. The letter told me how beautiful I am, and basically a list of my qualities. I may have been a little harsh but I wasn’t able to go out with him again. Other guys just act flakey.
It seems a bit weird, but most of the first approaches which ended in dates were started by me. But then, it never leads anywhere. Then I start doubting my looks and my qualities in general. I always wonder if I am doing something wrong to keep the guys I want away…
It feels a bit conceited of me, like I said before, to imply that I am beautiful. Especially because that’s not how I feel everyday. There’s times I feel ugly. There’s the preconceived notion that if you’re considered beautiful, you’ll have endless options. Maybe true, but it’s not the pool of options you want.
I feel like when I approach men, which I am training myself to do, they lose respect for me. Or think I am easy. This is the problema. I also don’t think I am only beautiful, I have more than looks which is why it upsets that a nice man can’t have the guts to come talk to me. I won’t bite. But maybe I really a unattractive and am deluding myself, which might be why I am still single and a virgin. It’s difficult to think otherwise when my experience with men is so shallow and limited. And before 18, I was basically an outsider.
Sometimes it gets so lonely that I just want to go out with one of those guys who I obviously know what he wants…but I know I would feel bad about myself afterwards.
March 18, 2017 at 7:16 PM
I’m sorry your experiences have been so negative, Aurorasky. You’re definitely on the right track as far as striking up conversations with guys and even suggesting you go out. The core issue, however, is that the guys you’re interacting with are so young. There just aren’t that many guys in their twenties who are mature enough and confident in who they are. The young “nice guys” you’ve been dating are just too intimidated by attractive women. I know this is frustrating to hear but all I can suggest is to keep looking and keep trying. If you give up, it will not only not happen, you’ll be miserable too.
March 19, 2017 at 2:43 AM
Now I ask: Did these experiences with those shallow guys really mean I’m attractive? Or did they think they could take advantage of a girl who’s ugly and unexperienced. I guess growing up as an ugly duckling really took a toll on me but I know I am strong and will overcome it. And do unattractive women experience this kind of attention? Also, why did the women at call centre talk about my (lack) of experience to a guy they know would use it against me?
March 19, 2017 at 7:55 AM
It sure sounds like they viewed you as attractive, Aurorasky. And yes, the self-image we have while growing up tends to stick with us long after that image is no longer valid. Plenty of beautiful women do now think of themselves as attractive, just as a friend of mine who grew up fat still thinks of himself that way even though he lost all the excess weight.
The more attractive a woman is, the more she experiences that kind of attention from men.
As for the women who talked about you behind your back, I have no idea!
March 20, 2017 at 12:15 PM
Yeah, just yesterday a “jock” type guy wanted me to go to his house watch a movie, also know him from a job I had and we hadn’t talked in about one year and a half. To me, I think these invites are never about watching a movie, but making the movie. I don’t know him well. I’m afraid and always refuse these kind of invitations.
It really sucks. Meanwhile, the shy nice guy I was talking about doesn’t even reply anymore.
March 20, 2017 at 12:20 PM
As noted elsewhere in these comments, Aurorasky, the challenge is to keep up a positive attitude no matter what your experiences with the hunters are. If you let yourself become disillusioned, you’ll make yourself miserable and won’t be in a good frame of mind to take advantage of a good opportunity when it does come along.
March 20, 2017 at 12:33 PM
I know you’re right. I am just too frustrated. What about my friends? I went out with my friend, met her boyfriend and his friend. It seems like her boyfriend really sympathised with me and kept laughing at the things I said, and such… Now she’s acting distant. I am trying not to think too much about it,
However, it’s hard. As I told you, I used to be an ugly duckling and I had a friend who was attractive growing up but then she put on a lot of weight, while I changed. Well, she couldn’t handle it and was used to being “better” and more confident than I was, and the friendship also ended. I don’t mean to say all women are like this, but it’s getting increasingly more difficult to actually have female friends.
March 20, 2017 at 12:37 PM
Yes, a lot of attractive women have realized that beauty can be both a blessing and a curse. It not only can attract the wrong kind of men, it can cause jealousy among women. Again, don’t lose hope. Keep working on your own personal growth and the right relationships, both romantic and otherwise, will come into your life when the timing is right.
March 30, 2017 at 8:18 AM
Another common situation is that married older men to seem to hit on you more. Is it because they got nothing to lose? They think they are charming enough to bed a younger woman???
I went to a friend’s house, who has been submitted to surgery recently and is resting. His dad is always super nice to me, maybe even too nice and his tone of voice is always very meek and slow: “Oh, what a good surprise you are here!” and so on… Because I visited him at evening, it was already night at the time I wanted to leave so his father didn’t want me to walk home so he offered to ride me there. Meanwhile in the car, he started talking and somehow got to a topic where he said oh and there’s so many young people who now have relationships with much older people and it’s all fine. It was so awkward, I didn’t know what to think. I just thanked him, said bye and left when I got home.
But this is always happening. Committed guys or men hitting, or sleazy men, or guys who want a first date at their home.
March 30, 2017 at 5:41 PM
Yes, these guys must be playing a numbers game. They’re probably thinking, “If I ask 20 women and one says yes, it’s worth it.” I don’t envy attractive women for having to fend off so many unwanted — and very awkward! — advances.
March 30, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Hi Phil. For a nice guy who loves a beautiful and wants to have a relationship with her how can he make her feel like he doesn’t mainly love her for her beauty.
March 30, 2017 at 10:45 PM
Study this, Muba!
March 31, 2017 at 12:32 AM
Also, I actually dress simple/casual most of the time. I almost never wear any makeup, except mascara. I love dressing up but I am aware of this kind of attention rising and then feel bad about it. So, yeah. I don’t know what would happen if I always wore super chic/sexy. Most of the time I feel afraid to do so.
March 31, 2017 at 5:32 PM
If you like to dress up, then by all means do so. Yes, you’ll almost certainly attract some unwanted attention from men, but don’t let that stop you. You are the one in control of your life, not men. Dress for yourself if it makes you feel good!
April 1, 2017 at 5:35 AM
Thanks. But to be honest I already get that kind of attention a lot dressing simple. So maybe I really shouldn’t let it deter from dressing the way I want. However, it’s hard.
April 10, 2017 at 3:32 AM
It is very hard for many of us good men to approach women these days since most of the time we really do get rejected unfortunately. And most women always look mad and very moody when we approach them especially when a few times they said to me leave me alone which you can see why many of us men have very bad luck with women even though we never did anything wrong in the first place to begin with. I know friends that had it happened to them as well which this is a very excellent reason why many of us men are still single today since it does take two to tango.
April 13, 2017 at 4:56 AM
A few thoughts:
If you approach someone with the expectation that you’re going to get rejected, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because that vibe is reflected in how you approach them.
On the other hand, it’s easy to understand why women who are tired of being hit on by hunters can get annoyed by any man hitting on them, no matter his intentions.
When you have the same experience over and over, you tend to be less open to having a different experience and outcome.
That’s why it’s so difficult to meet someone in settings where people go to meet someone.
April 20, 2017 at 12:25 AM
Agreed.
It’s not necessarily because we find you unattractive. But unfortunately, repeated experiences of sexual harassment from men in the street, catcalls make many women closed off to men approaching them in public settings.
April 20, 2017 at 6:15 AM
Yes, that’s the Catch 22. The wrong men approach women in a way that causes women to close off to all men, including the right ones.
April 21, 2017 at 10:40 PM
This is great Phil. It’s also great to see you still participating in this comment section after so many years.
So long story short: I’ll go ahead and say I also fall into the ‘highly attractive woman’ category, I can see it’s safe to say that here without being seen as conceited. And yeah… I’ve a history of attracting the wrong men. But the problem is twofold.
1) I attract the hunters, so to speak. They’re not what I’m looking for at all.
But more importantly:
2) Due to being emotionally unavailable (for many reasons) and having low self-esteem (basing my identity on a ‘checklist’ of my traits and not the person of value I really am inside, which I’ve been working on very hard lately to reverse), I attract the non-hunters who mirror me and have low self-esteem themselves. I could tell you stories but they’re unhappy ones. Just disastrous. It’s those experiences that made me realize I had to work on myself.
People here (and you) have mentioned that it really is about how you feel about yourself inside. I tested it. Last week I went through a 180-degree internal transformation… seriously. It only lasted like 3 days. I’m trying to figure out why it didn’t last longer although I suspect it’s like this at first and it will take multiple tries until it sticks for good. But yeah, during those 3 days, I was seriously 100% at peace with myself and, by extension, other people. I noticed I got attention from many kinds of men, lots of whom I could tell (intuitively) were nice guys. I mean I was just glowing from the inside. It wasn’t even just men, it was people and animals too. Little kids were drawn to me and so were dogs (people’s pets) more so than usual. The best I can do to describe it is like being a magnet; people are drawn to positivity. I was open and very accepting.
It was amazing. I’m a bit frustrated lately because I’m not sure how I did it exactly. Today I was closed off again and I had a standoffish vibe, I’m sure of it. Just didn’t feel good about myself and couldn’t look at too many men in the eye to know what’s going on for sure.
I got a lot of work to do and look forward to more experimenting. This is just the beginning.
April 22, 2017 at 5:25 PM
That’s pretty awesome, Deb! Now that you have a taste of what you want to feel like all the time, you’re right: you have to earn it by working on yourself. A woman named Suzy recently left a long comment on this post, and I just added her thoughts to the main post because I thought that what she wrote could be helpful to other women. Check out her comment and let me know what you think.
Oh, and as far as working on yourself, you may find my book helpful. You can check it out here.
April 24, 2017 at 10:08 AM
Hey again.
So, this is complicated. As I have explained before, I almost daily receive sexual harassment on the street especially if it’s summer. When I was in high school last year I had trouble with two boys who used to be really nasty to me. The reasons don’t matter, but one of those boys tried to force me to be sexual with him and ended beating me up (but I managed to defend myself). I have also had one man following me in public transportation, til I had to switch rotations. So, I try not to be paranoid about it and sometimes it’s hard.
However, at the station I catch the train, there’s such a cute guy at the small coffee shop. He always looks when I pass by, and I even locked eyes with him one time. He works there, but I would really like to see if it can go anywhere (but being respectful). One day, I started a conversation with him about a man (who I think is a drug addict) that was telling me I was very beautiful, and why he said those funny things and acted funny. I was actually being positive. But then the drugged man came and told the guy he scared girls off, and that I was so pretty and implied the coffee shop guy was also attracted to me. “I imagine how you must feel talking to her, even I feel the same just by looking at this” . . . yeah, I’m translating to english but he didn’t use so subtle terms. So yeah, he ruined the convo. Anyways, the creepy man left after that and so did I after eating my little cake.
Unfortunately, the trauma of those guys and harassment is still there, and recently I found those two guys and 5 more just across the street where I live. My brother has one friend who is friends with those guys,and who has been coming to our house, so I was really scared that they had realized where I live. I walked as fast as I could so they wouldn’t see and recognize me. BTW, my área is a very isolated one and difficult to reach intituitevly, not a known área and it’s tall. That is why I found it so weird. It was also a Thursday, I was leaving at 1 PM.
So what I did next was ask in the coffee shops of my área if they had ever seen. I went to the cofee shop with the cute guy, this time the owner was also there. I showed an image, he asked what had happened. I explained and gave details and they advised on what to do. Both tried to help and said what to do.
So basically I like this guy, he seems so nice and would like to see where it goes. But it seems we always enconteur each other when I’m being harassed (by the drugged man) or where I feel threatened (the guys), which is not a good conversation starter, even though he was really helpful. What should I do now? Ensure I’m okay and will take care? I just don’t want to seem like a paranoid girl, is that what I look like right now? I really exude positive energy most of the time. Do you think they would be understanding?
Thanks,
April 27, 2017 at 12:05 PM
It’s impossible to say how the guy in the coffee shop will respond, but if you’re comfortable suggesting to him that it would be nice to have a conversation outside of his workplace, that might be a good place to start. You could ask him what the best way for him to communicate would be.
May 9, 2017 at 12:44 PM
You are right. I’ll just be confident and ask him out. What’s the worst that could happen? Him saying no?
Meanwhile all the “wolves” are still after me. But I’m learning to come to terms with it and accept them for who they are: insecure men.
May 15, 2017 at 8:13 AM
I had one woman suggest that I join her for lunch at a restaurant she was going to that week. She gave the time and place. If I wanted to have “a good lunch,” I should check the place out.
I thought that was pretty creative. She asked me out, but then again she didn’t. And if I declined, which I didn’t, it wouldn’t matter, because she was going anyway.
May 15, 2017 at 8:35 AM
Clever and creative indeed!
June 12, 2017 at 3:12 PM
I mus say, I suffered a lot because of that, since I was raised as am innocent girl but without knowing that I was considered beautiful. I was used by all those men you named. Now I gave up, and finally I can rest since I’m over 30 and those “kind” go for girls in their 20s, although I have to deal with pervs old guys. It’s a never ending thing. I think I will rest when I’m dead. Anyways, is tiring as hell, so I just hope to get lucky some day and meet a real man. In the meantime, I live my life and enjoy my existence.
June 13, 2017 at 6:14 AM
I’m sorry you’ve had to suffer, Bix. I need to mention though that being in your thirties is certainly no guarantee that you won’t continue receiving the same attention.
September 21, 2017 at 10:17 AM
It’ true…..!!! Such a good post……jai shree radhe
….
October 1, 2017 at 10:35 AM
Too bad you guys chased STEVE away. Or perhaps he just became tired of trying to teach. He was 100% correct in everything he wrote, and whereas I become bored with most relationship threads/blogs, his words kept me on this one. Can’t believe I’ve read this whole thing.
Ladies, most of you who agree with the “making a man wait” (euphemism for “weaponized vagina”) are in denial. At least “try” to understand when someone is giving you wisdom; instead of turning a Q&A into your own manifesto rant session. Any of you who were raised by a single father may be ahead of the curve on “linear” thought vs. “process/emotional” thought.
Was it Mark Twain, or who??……”It’s easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled”……
Maybe there is 1 woman who will actually take vigorous notes on what Steve wrote. Certain buzz words that came from him resonated with me, but I can only speculate when I say it sounds like he pulled & pooled wisdom from: (1) his real life (2) maybe Tom Leykis (3) one or two older well-known seduction boards (4) several other sources that my memory is skipping on.
And no, the seduction boards were not about “getting as many chicks as you can find”. They were primarily for men to start getting their act together — dressing nicely, grooming, being well-read, becoming a better conversationalist, developing genuine interests/hobbies, hitting the gym, gaining valuable skill sets, etc….
Steve was VERY-WELL tuned-in to the brains of both sides.
November 13, 2017 at 12:10 AM
Dear Phil,
What does it mean if a man tells a woman at some point during their conversation “I am your boyfriend, not your friend”? and later on during the day when they talk again, he says “I am not in love, in love with you, but I really like you a lot”
Aren’t the two statements kind of contradictory to each other?? Please give some advice
November 14, 2017 at 11:18 AM
Frankly, it sounds like he’s spending time with you until he finds someone else he’d rather be with. If you’re getting something out of the relationship as it currently stands, that’s fine. But if you only want to be in a relationship that will stand the test of time, this isn’t it.
September 11, 2019 at 7:23 PM
I find that beautiful women tend to rely on their beauty instead of their personality and consequently, their (undeveloped?) personality does not attract a lot of nice guys.
September 11, 2019 at 7:36 PM
Hi, Mark. While that may be true for a small percentage of women, I suspect there are just as many men with underdeveloped
personalities for any number of reasons!
January 26, 2021 at 12:48 AM
This isn’t a beautiful woman problem. This is an any woman problem. Women are beautiful period. Every woman is sexually attractive to some subset of men. Usually the less attractive the man is, the less picky he is. The more attractive he is, the higher his standards. And seeing that most men are average or below average looking, that’means most women are seen as attractive. Most men are dogs period. Men commit most rapes, sexual assaults and violent crimes by a very wide statistical margin. They are what they are. Most women aren’t drop dead gorgeous or even beautiful by commercial standards. Most women are just women. And that alone makes them a target for sexual misuse. A hunter is a hunter period. He hunts anything he finds average or above and in desperate need will settle for below average. I’ve dated women who were ugly(by my standard) and women who were 10s and everything in between and you know what they all had in common? You guessed it, they had all been hunted. All had relationship problems with guys who only wanted one thing. Sex. All women get approached by hunters. All of them. All the time. There’s simply more jerks than good men. 9 out of 10 guys are jerks. So this article has good intentions but is off base. Why because all women are beautiful to some subset of men. Making them all targets for hunters. Most women have trouble finding me right.
January 30, 2021 at 2:40 PM
From a much broader perspective, there’s certainly truth in your contention, Alan. However, it’s undeniable that the more beautiful a woman is, the less likely that “nice guys” will approach her — meaning that virtually all the men who do will be hunters.
And while there may be “more jerks than good men,” it’s certainly not a 9:1 ratio. Perhaps that’s true in certain segments of the population, but there are countless good men who value and honor women.
October 1, 2023 at 8:27 AM
I somehow found this article back in 2013 and saved it in my email. I wish I had read it to its entirety many years ago. I find the information valuable and very true concerning the facts. Thank you for this article.
October 1, 2023 at 8:35 AM
You are very welcome, Dee. I’m glad you found value in it.